Vintage cab experts needed! Looking at a 70's cab with Greenbacks

BWOTW

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I've been offered a trade of my cab (a Blackstar Artisan 4x12" with v30's) for an old Marshall cabinet with Greenbacks. I'd be using it with my JMP 2203.

I didn't know much about vintage cabs before I researched them today. As far as I can tell, this is a 1960A Marshall cab with June 1973 Rola Celestion G12M Greenbacks (which should have the desired Pulsonic cones, right?)

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Am I right, is it a '73 1960A? Does the cabling/wiring look stock? The only weird thing I see are the two jacks on the back panel, that's probably a mod...

Who has one of them? I think it'll be a cool match to my 2203, but I'd like to know what to expect when I plug into it, used as I am to my V30's... Would you do the trade?

Thanks!!!
 

Valvelust

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Dates to May 1973
Difficult to tell if the cones are original pulsonic without seeing code but look as though
Speakers alone can sell for $175-$250 with original cones
Non original wiring, looks like it altered for stereo with jacks
All together they usually sell for $600-$1000 depending on location and condition.
Big tear and altered back panel do affect value.
 
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yladrd61

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Easy rewire I would say go for it, the codes are on the back of the speaker cones... Also keep in mind a cranked 2203 is well over the 100 Watt rating of that cab so you may want to attenuate ;)

PS: Leave the old tolex and grille cloth if you want to maintain the value of the cab, original speakers with original cones are getting harder to find !!!!
 

soundboy57

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Great cabs. I have a few of them:D
They sound nothing like a vintage 30...and that's a good thing. You may not like them, if you love the V30.
The speakers alone are worth $1200 for the quad....although with the condition of the cab, and missing original casters, that is about what the whole thing would sell for, and why so many part them out, if they aren't mint and complete.
The wiring harness is original, which lends hope that the cones are too.
They will have a "3" or "1777" in white ink, if they are original.
They had pulsonic cones until about November of '73.
They sound glorious.
The cab is in really fine shape, other than the grill. Stitch it together and leave it.
I would trade if I were you, before he figures out the speakers are worth four times what the Blackstar cab is...
Nothing made now sounds like these old cabs....no matter what speakers are installed.
Here is a '73 B cab
1973Bcab.jpg
 

metromutt

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I think your in the best position if they want your cab and what's better is you'll be able to A/B them if you take your amp with you as well. This really is the only way to check out the cab and if you like greenbacks after using v30's (bear in mined you'll have to alter the eq to what suits with the 12m's).

Give each spk a good listen for any buzzing etc. also try it at gigging volume as this is were problems may show in the spks performance. I think the cab would look great with your amp and imo 12m's are awesome, but not for all styles of music. I'd get the cab anyway and if the spks didn't suit your style replace them with v30's and sell the 12m's (600euros?) a 73 cab is a well built cab and there's a tone in aged wood!
 

Joshabr1

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If he is offering you that cab for your cab?? Even Steven? I hope you made the trade yesterday!! The speakers in that cab and that cab itself are benchmarks in tone and cab design!!!!!! Trade like your life depended on it bro.
 

Joshabr1

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Probably be 3 cones possibly 102 3. The speakers look untouched to me. But make sure either a 3 or 102 3 is inside on the cone( it will be) and get that cab. Greenbacks with those cones sound like no other speaker I've ever heard. Nothing touches them in my eyes and many many others. The pinnacle of a rock and roll/blues speaker.
 

BWOTW

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Thanks guys!!! Looks like it 's gonna be a great cab, I'll do the trade this weekend, hope it goes OK, fingers crossed!!!
 

stalefish

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I like Vintage 30s, but that cab will destroy your Blackstar cab. Dumbest trade ever for the other guy, but you will make out like a bandit. Do it fast before he realizes what's going on.

Keep in mind though that Greenbacks are softer and less loud than Vintage 30s. Don't think there's something wrong because the cab doesn't seem as loud overall, that's the nature of 97 db Greenbacks compared to 100 db V30s. It's not a huge difference, but there is a difference.
 

Valvelust

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The wiring harness is original, which lends hope that the cones are too.
The cab is in really fine shape, other than the grill. Stitch it together and leave it.
quote]

The actual wire may be original but there has been a re solder and rewire on the speakers.
Also and additional jack has been modified and cut into the back panel.
Still a nice cab and very desired.
 

george76

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I dont know much about blackstar cabs but I would trade it for an old Marshall in a heartbeat.

Please dont be so quick to attach high values to old celestions. "Get em out, and check em out". I just sold a similar period quad to a forum member here for under £60 gbp per speaker. Condition is everything.

A torn grill often means a torn cone...
 

soundboy57

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Probably be 3 cones possibly 102 3. The speakers look untouched to me. But make sure either a 3 or 102 3 is inside on the cone( it will be) and get that cab. Greenbacks with those cones sound like no other speaker I've ever heard. Nothing touches them in my eyes and many many others. The pinnacle of a rock and roll/blues speaker.

1973 cones had either "3", "4" or 1777 on them. The last of the original pulsonics.
The codes 102 3 was phased out in '72, IME.
 

soundboy57

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I dont know much about blackstar cabs but I would trade it for an old Marshall in a heartbeat.

Please dont be so quick to attach high values to old celestions. "Get em out, and check em out". I just sold a similar period quad to a forum member here for under £60 gbp per speaker. Condition is everything.

A torn grill often means a torn cone...

I get a bit over excited when I see those, and this is exactly right on.
Lot's can happen to the speaker in 40 years.
 

GIBSON67

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1973 cones had either "3", "4" or 1777 on them. The last of the original pulsonics.
The codes 102 3 was phased out in '72, IME.

I only get red x's, so I can't see the pics...

But NO cone markings is also usual for 1973 T1221's. And sometimes the 1777 is in pencil. And I have seen RICI cones on T1511's for 1973.

And the covers could be either Green, Grey or Cream.

Damn, I wish I could see the pics...
 

soundboy57

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I only get red x's, so I can't see the pics...

But NO cone markings is also usual for 1973 T1221's. And sometimes the 1777 is in pencil. And I have seen RICI cones on T1511's for 1973.

And the covers could be either Green, Grey or Cream.

Damn, I wish I could see the pics...

Cream started late '73, these are May, and green.
RIC cones started in Nov/Dec '73, about the same time.
Most of the unmarked cones I have seen are mid 70's.
Although I haven't seen them all from '73, I have seen a fair amount of original ones (greenbacks), and they have all had stamps.

The easiest way to tell, if no markings, is to see the front of the cone. Dead giveaway as to what cone type.

YMMV, this is just my experience.

I did confirm with Mueller in Germany, via email with a long time engineer, that the pulsonic factory did indeed have a fire in late '73, it is no longer just a rumour.

While they were retooling and rebuilding, they used the RIC cones.

And...George76 will attest to this...they used the pulsonic paper in the newer cone stamping equipment throughout late '74-'76 or so.
I had a set in a '75 slant with early blackbacks.
The cones had the familiar shadow around the dustcap, and were the same color as my other pulsonics, but the ribs were slightly more defined and prominent, as if they used a different, new cone stamping machine. And, they sounded very very close to my earlier ones.

Just some FYI for the speaker nerds, George76 has a lot of this info at bygonetones, where I added a LOT to my personal knowledge on the subject.
If I got some of this wrong, please correct me
:D
 

george76

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I think a lot of confusion is caused by the date codes. They printed them back to front a lot of the time with the month and year back to front. But most people dont realise it and date their speakers inaccurately. You need to be a real nerd sometimes to spot it. There is some transitional overlap too of course with various parts.

With the cone codes my experience has been this:

Pulsonic 102 3 codes up until Feb 73
Pulsonic 3 and 1777 codes Feb to Aug 73

The RIC cones are predominant Oct 73 into late 1974, and they are often unstamped.

The 98700 cones make a brief appearance for a couple of months May/June 1974. Nice cones if you can find them.

Late 1974 into late 1975 there are two main predominant cones. The pale grey "Kurt Mueller" cones (were they really made by Kurt Mueller???) usually unstamped, and the "transitional pulsonic" cones with the larger ribs (stamped 1777 or 0444).

From very late 1975 the "Kurt Mueller" cones are predominant (but not used exclusively), with the familiar 1777 and 444 stamps.

Last week I picked up one of those cones with the yellow chalk 1777 on it. Original cone but I dont know what type of cone it is, maybe another unknown supplier. Too rough for me to use it (frozen cone). Ive seen photos of others online always late 73, but Ive never owned one myself until now.

There are also some blue looking cones used in the late 70's.

Still a lot to be learnt about them.

Green covers into late 73 (August-ish). Grey - into spring 74. Cream - into late 1975. Black spring 75 into 1980/1981.

There are always oddball overlaps and transitional stuff too. Ive seen a '3' stamp on a Dec 75 speaker, Green covers in 74.

There is a blackback T1281 on UK ebay right now with what appears to be a large rib pulsonic dated June 1976. Its either a 1444 stamp, or the 0 hasnt printed properly:

CELESTION SPEAKERS G12H 30W 16 Ohms 55Mz x2 T1281X | eBay

(the one on the right)

From what soundboy was finding out from the guy at Kurt Mueller it could be that the cones everyone calls Kurt Mueller cones (the pale grey looking ones) are not actually Kurt Mueller cones at all, but who knows. (If Kurt Mueller were the ones providing the old pulsonic pulp for a while, then who was making the pale grey ones?). Its a head scratcher...
 

Joshabr1

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Well was there any mueller coned greenbacks?? I was thinking the change to the lighter grey cones w no doping around dustcap was after the magnet cover color change. Is this right?? Soundboy George?
 

stilllifer

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Thanks guys!!! Looks like it 's gonna be a great cab, I'll do the trade this weekend, hope it goes OK, fingers crossed!!!

Seriously. Get that Blackstar in your vehicle and get the hell over there now...that Marshall cab will destroy the Blackstar. Your 2203 will come alive with those speakers!!! :hbang:
 

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