Treble Bleed Help

[Jason deBroux]

Hey guys.
I’ve got a MIM Strat with 250k pots
I have a Dimarzzio DP404 in the bridge position and In the middle and and neck position I have Fender Custom Shop Fat 60s.

As you would have guessed it, in losing treble and probably some bass when I roll the volume back on my guitar. I’d like to install some sort of circuit that allows me to keep the tone of my guitar when the volume is at 10 and I don’t want to loose the volume sweep of the pot either.

Any suggestions and or recommendations ?

 

[anitoli]

https://stratocasterdesign.com/index.php/treble-bleed/

 

[George Dickens]

https://octavedoctor.com/treble-bleed-circuit-what-is-it-and-do-i-need-it/

 

[JohnH]

https://stratocasterdesign.com/index.php/treble-bleed/

That's a good link, and in it, it links to some work that I did - see under the TV Jones heading.

My conclusion was, a resistor and a capacitor in parallel. The best values didn't seem to depend much on cable length or on specific pickups. But it did depend somewhat on the volume pot value, and also on which reduced volume setting is most important.

I reckon for a 500k pot, a 150k resistor and a 120k with a 250k pot.

If your most important reduced volume is 6 or above, use a 1000pF cap, but reduce that to about 680pF if you more commonly go to 5 or below.

These values are good options, or you may treat them as a starting point and prefer values + or - a bit.

These TB circuits make no difference at full volume but control loss of treble at reduced volume.. They also slow the taper a bit (in a good way IMO). Whether they are need at all is a matter of personal choice.

 

[Jason deBroux]

Ge

That's a good link, and in it, it links to some work that I did - see under the TV Jones heading.

My conclusion was, a resistor and a capacitor in parallel. The best values didn't seem to depend much on cable length or on specific pickups. But it did depend somewhat on the volume pot value, and also on which reduced volume setting is most important.

I reckon for a 500k pot, a 150k resistor and a 120k with a 250k pot.

If your most important reduced volume is 6 or above, use a 1000pF cap, but reduce that to about 680pF if you more commonly go to 5 or below.

These values are good options, or you may treat them as a starting point and prefer values + or - a bit.

These TB circuits make no difference at full volume but control loss of treble at reduced volume.. They also slow the taper a bit (in a good way IMO). Whether they are need at all is a matter of personal choice.

great info, cool to also talk to one of the folks on this article. Sounds like a 120k resistor with a 1000pf cap would be the way to go.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

That's a good link, and in it, it links to some work that I did - see under the TV Jones heading.

My conclusion was, a resistor and a capacitor in parallel. The best values didn't seem to depend much on cable length or on specific pickups. But it did depend somewhat on the volume pot value, and also on which reduced volume setting is most important.

I reckon for a 500k pot, a 150k resistor and a 120k with a 250k pot.

If your most important reduced volume is 6 or above, use a 1000pF cap, but reduce that to about 680pF if you more commonly go to 5 or below.

These values are good options, or you may treat them as a starting point and prefer values + or - a bit.

These TB circuits make no difference at full volume but control loss of treble at reduced volume.. They also slow the taper a bit (in a good way IMO). Whether they are need at all is a matter of personal choice.

My experience as well, and why I like the "Suhr values" (150k and 680pF in parallel) on a HSS guitar. Only downside is, I don't like the way the volume pot "behaves" with a Fuzz Face when using a treble bleed circuit.

 

[Jason deBroux]

I saw some things on YouTube where these fuzz and treble bleeds don’t work well together. But I don’t have a fuzz yet, so we will see what happens when I get one.

 

[junk notes]

I saw some things on YouTube where these fuzz and treble bleeds don’t work well together. But I don’t have a fuzz yet, so we will see what happens when I get one.

Have you played through a Silicon and/or a Germanium? Have you played through a muff or hybrid - what a worm hole! good luck.

 

[El Gringo]

My experience as well, and why I like the "Suhr values" (150k and 680pF in parallel) on a HSS guitar. Only downside is, I don't like the way the volume pot "behaves" with a Fuzz Face when using a treble bleed circuit.

Why ? what does it do with the Fuzz Face ?

 

[joe_cpwe]

You could could go on eBay and likely find a seller that has an assortment number of different valued treble bleed circuits so you could try them.

On a Strat w/ 250k pots you could rewire it to vintage wiring and see if that helps enough for you.

As for treble bleeds there isn't one perfect answer, different values can effect the tone quite a lot. I like a treble bleed on humbuckers because rolling off volume brightens the tone, adding a ton of flexibility. I have an old Kramer with a capacitor only and I like it (or I'm used to it?) but when I add them to other guitars I don't ever like a cap only style.

All my treble bleeds happen to be on guitars w/ humbuckers and 500k volume pots, and not all are the same value circuit.

For me, I have some gator clips and test out a few different values. I also check series vs parallel to see which I like. I've basically settled on using a .oo1 cap all the time. Last guitar I did I added treble bleeds to both humbuckers, in series/Kinman style w/ cap and resistor.

bridge 1000/100
neck 1000/130
If I remember right, 130 seems to be pretty universally ok, sometimes a 100 or a 150 feels right. I've not tried lots of values of caps, the 1000pf seems to work ok.

Parts are really cheap, but shipping adds a large amount per item so ordered a small bag of caps and some 100k, 130, 150, 220 resistors to try out variations using the alligator clips.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Why ? what does it do with the Fuzz Face ?

Kinda hard to describe, but very obvious when you experience it.
In my experience, the way a FF cleans up when you roll off your volume pot, it progressively loses bottom end, to the point you get a pretty bright edge of breakup. Without a treble bleed, as you roll off volume, your tone gets darker, which helps offset the way it gets cleaner from the low end buildup in the FF progressively goes away.
WITH a treble bleed, the issue is, you top end remains, to the point where it's pretty brittle (especially with a Si FF).
Also, with all guitars equipped with a treble bleed I've played, instead of transitioning smoothly and very progressively from fat super saturated fuzz to the aforementioned bright almost clean, transition is very brutal and happens all at one point of the pot. My theory being, the reason for that is how the treble bleed circuit (and the resistance in particular) changes the taper of the pot.
Last thing, but it might be partly psychological, it seems to me that with a treble bleed there's less interaction between the fuzz and the tone pot.
Your mileage might vary, of course.

As for the Muff variants, they're so saturated and compressed to begin with, rolling off the volume does not much anyway, so in that case it's not really an issue IMHO.

 

[El Gringo]

Kinda hard to describe, but very obvious when you experience it.
In my experience, the way a FF cleans up when you roll off your volume pot, it progressively loses bottom end, to the point you get a pretty bright edge of breakup. Without a treble bleed, as you roll off volume, your tone gets darker, which helps offset the way it gets cleaner from the low end buildup in the FF progressively goes away.
WITH a treble bleed, the issue is, you top end remains, to the point where it's pretty brittle (especially with a Si FF).
Also, with all guitars equipped with a treble bleed I've played, instead of transitioning smoothly and very progressively from fat super saturated fuzz to the aforementioned bright almost clean, transition is very brutal and happens all at one point of the pot. My theory being, the reason for that is how the treble bleed circuit (and the resistance in particular) changes the taper of the pot.
Last thing, but it might be partly psychological, it seems to me that with a treble bleed there's less interaction between the fuzz and the tone pot.
Your mileage might vary, of course.

As for the Muff variants, they're so saturated and compressed to begin with, rolling off the volume does not much anyway, so in that case it's not really an issue IMHO.

Very good points and I get where your coming from and it is so true when rolling back the volume of how you lose bottom end and then you do get that really bright brittle type sound (yuck) which is probably why when I use effects I will almost always leave the guitars volume up . Here is another internal debate I have between my ears and my head when using Fuzz do you use it thru the clean channel and when engaged gives it that 4th of July tonal explosion or do you use it on the Lead Channel ? where it's more subtle at first when engaged ?

 

[Jason deBroux]

Have you played through a Silicon and/or a Germanium? Have you played through a muff or hybrid - what a worm hole! good luck.

I’ve never been a big effects guy. I’ve always just used what the amp had given me, reverb, and the fingers and hands do the rest.

But that’s probably going to change since I’ve been on this Hendrix kick for the better part of the last 3 years.

 

[El Gringo]

I’ve never been a big effects guy. I’ve always just used what the amp had given me, reverb, and the fingers and hands do the rest.

But that’s probably going to change since I’ve been on this Hendrix kick for the better part of the last 3 years.

Yup, as you will want a fuzz pedal , a wah wah pedal, a octave pedal , and a univibe pedal for Machine Gun .

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Very good points and I get where your coming from and it is so true when rolling back the volume of how you lose bottom end and then you do get that really bright brittle type sound (yuck) which is probably why when I use effects I will almost always leave the guitars volume up . Here is another internal debate I have between my ears and my head when using Fuzz do you use it thru the clean channel and when engaged gives it that 4th of July tonal explosion or do you use it on the Lead Channel ? where it's more subtle at first when engaged ?

Well, these days I only use my Studio Vintage, so I don't really use a 100% clean tone And I haven't used a pristine clean tone in ages anyway (I used my DSL100 channel 1 on Crunch mode with gain low).
My base tone is the SV with both volumes on 7 or so, ie AC/DC type crunch.

 

[Jason deBroux]

Yup, as you will want a fuzz pedal , a wah wah pedal, a octave pedal , and a univibe pedal for Machine Gun .

yea you’re right. Those are all on the list. My wife is going to love it hahaha

 

[El Gringo]

Well, these days I only use my Studio Vintage, so I don't really use a 100% clean tone And I haven't used a pristine clean tone in ages anyway (I used my DSL100 channel 1 on Crunch mode with gain low).
My base tone is the SV with both volumes on 7 or so, ie AC/DC type crunch.

Thanks for the info

 

[junk notes]

I’ve never been a big effects guy. I’ve always just used what the amp had given me, reverb, and the fingers and hands do the rest.

But that’s probably going to change since I’ve been on this Hendrix kick for the better part of the last 3 years.

Well, eventually tell the wifey it is necessary needing to get a germanium fuzz, and a silicon fuzz, (and perhaps you will sell the other - not). That should shorten your 3yr time-frame deciding.. not to tell her.
You will also need to bs tell her that you will be in need of a wah for humbuckers, and one for singlecoils. YMMV on model.

 

[Jason deBroux]

Oh she’s full on aware of all of this. She’s hears it. She gets to here all the ideas I come up with. Shit, each kid got a song written for them before they were born, and Jimi is a big reason for that.

She understands the creativity, but I don’t think she quite realizes how loud it’s going to be at times lol