Should’ve went with what I knew to be true!

[PowerTube44]

I've been saying this for years. I can tame ANY 100-watt head with the volume knob on a distortion pedal, or a GT-100 in the loop, or any number of methods. Five watts is far beyond "bedroom level," and one watt is a mosquito fart.

Using a 100-watt stack isn't about volume; it's about depth and headroom.

 

[PelliX]

The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many.

If were allowed in a bar, let alone allowed to smoke inside I'd put up with a lot. Hell, I could probably stomach an evening of Britney at insane volumes.

 

[trax1139]

A

I've been saying this for years. I can tame ANY 100-watt head with the volume knob on a distortion pedal, or a GT-100 in the loop, or any number of methods. Five watts is far beyond "bedroom level," and one watt is a mosquito fart.

Using a 100-watt stack isn't about volume; it's about depth and headroom.

Amen!

 

[trax1139]

Ma

This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.

Wow! You’re way more quiet than your Grandparents favorite Symphony Orchestra!

 

[junk notes]

So, now it’s time to order the JTM 45/100 like I should have in the first place.

(*Prefacing five year band disbanded since pandemic) This is a really touchy subject involving 50 to a 100 watt amps heads and/or combos for todays LIVE gigs..
I have always sported these amps as tools-of-the-trade grabbing the right tool for the right job. Combos for the smaller gigs such as an open-mic when I forgo the solo route, and at least a half-stack for regular payed gigs.
I get crap almost always, because when we are finished setting up, the second guitar player uses a DSL40c and looks unbalanced with a half-stack on stage. I am a dual vaiac user together with an attenuator, and look formative and intimidating sitting atop the head, but this is how I tame these higher wattage's running at 90v to get what I need.

I have been entertaining the thought of a PT15IR to bring everything up to speed so I can get back to gigging, but would have to learn this new approach in order to get close to the same invested tones I already have through my Plexi's and JCM's.
I recently set up the SV20H through my big-boy rig and am happy with the lower watt tones that I am extrapolating, but there is less girth and so far a no-go through a 1x12. Gets better with a 2x12 and in my neighborhood when going through a 4x12.

I also need to feel an amp, as well as hearing it. Just enough for some harmonic feedback hanging in a note..
YMMV

 

[Kinkless Tetrode]

Like this guy?

Hey, I've played with that guy.

 

[ibmorjamn]

#1... How can a drummer “gear down” unless it’s a plastic electronic set
#2...a band can’t play a quiet dynamic musical passage with little tinker toy gear that fills the room with fullness and power. So, it’s not just about loudness...quite the contrary.

I briefly got in a band but I was not in it long enough to play any gigs . Before I moved out of So Cal. Their vocalist was a drummer so for practice he had a real nice expensive electronic kit. It sounded damn good for what it was but I never knew a drummer that had a light touch in rock. I had the old DSL 40c and it could not cut through a loud set of drums. My 900 DR did well. And the JMD 50, being hybrid with a strong tube power section it could do both loud and quite.

 

[trax1139]

(*Prefacing five year band disbanded since pandemic) This is a really touchy subject involving 50 to a 100 watt amps heads and/or combos for todays LIVE gigs..
I have always sported these amps as tools-of-the-trade grabbing the right tool for the right job. Combos for the smaller gigs such as an open-mic when I forgo the solo route, and at least a half-stack for regular payed gigs.
I get crap almost always, because when we are finished setting up, the second guitar player uses a DSL40c and looks unbalanced with a half-stack on stage. I am a dual vaiac user together with an attenuator, and look formative and intimidating sitting atop the head, but this is how I tame these higher wattage's running at 90v to get what I need.

I have been entertaining the thought of a PT15IR to bring everything up to speed so I can get back to gigging, but would have to learn this new approach in order to get close to the same invested tones I already have through my Plexi's and JCM's.
I recently set up the SV20H through my big-boy rig and am happy with the lower watt tones that I am extrapolating, but there is less girth and so far a no-go through a 1x12. Gets better with a 2x12 and in my neighborhood when going through a 4x12.

I also need to feel an amp, as well as hearing it. Just enough for some harmonic feedback hanging in a note..
YMMV

I noticed the “less girth” and
“ need to feel an amp” comments.
I loved how you never mentioned volume when talking about those things. The little amps can be just as loud...they just sound-well-little. It’s physics period.

 

[marshallmellowed]

This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.

Nice writeup, and it pretty much sums it up. Locally, we seem to have to stay under 100 db for indoor venues, a bit louder for outdoor. You can ignore the venue owner, and play louder at those venues, but only once.

 

[bobpick68]

Ma
Wow! You’re way more quiet than your Grandparents favorite Symphony Orchestra!

It's whatever makes the venues happy. Doesn't matter the type of music or band. As I said towards the end of my post, it is what it is.

 

[anitoli]

Rock and roll is dead, lol. Jesus we routinely stop at 100Db in my jam room ( it's small 16x24 with two full stacks and a Super Bass half stack and another half running drums) and you can still talk over it, you gotta raise your voice a bit. 100db at 15 feet in 500 seat club is a joke.

 

[marshallmellowed]

Rock and roll is dead, lol. Jesus we routinely stop at 100Db in my jam room ( it's small 16x24 with two full stacks and a Super Bass half stack and another half running drums) and you can still talk over it, you gotta raise your voice a bit. 100db at 15 feet in 500 seat club is a joke.

I'm not a physicist, but I don't think you can do a direct comparison to 100 db in a good size club, vs. 100db in a 16x24 practice space, lots of factors to consider (reflections, sound dispersion...).

 

[anitoli]

I'm not a physicist, but I don't think you can do a direct comparison to 100 db in a good size club, vs. 100db in a 16x24 practice space (reflections, sound dispersion...).

My point was basically if i can control the sound level in my jam room using stacks a stack in a club should be no different. It's how it's utilized.

 

[junk notes]

I noticed the “less girth” and
“ need to feel an amp” comments.
I loved how you never mentioned volume when talking about those things. The little amps can be just as loud...they just sound-well-little. It’s physics period.

right, you are a lover not a fighter lol

Comprehensively, we mentioned of gigs, playing out at clubs, and at stage levels, or volumes.
This was recorded at these (same) club volumes. A 1992 and a 4x12. You are correct about the physics as I cannot get that with any 1x12 that I have.

 

[El Gringo]

right, you are a lover not a fighter lol

Comprehensively, we mentioned of gigs, playing out at clubs, and at stage levels, or volumes.
This was recorded at these (same) club volumes. A 1992 and a 4x12. You are correct about the physics as I cannot get that with any 1x12 that I have.

That sounds huge and oh so good . I agree that a 1x12 cannot sound like a 4x12 -no way !

 

[Derek S]

right, you are a lover not a fighter lol

Comprehensively, we mentioned of gigs, playing out at clubs, and at stage levels, or volumes.
This was recorded at these (same) club volumes. A 1992 and a 4x12. You are correct about the physics as I cannot get that with any 1x12 that I have.

Sounds great and even Alex would be impressed - that drummer has his snare and kick dialed in too!!

 

[bobpick68]

My point was basically if i can control the sound level in my jam room using stacks a stack in a club should be no different. It's how it's utilized.

Absolutely but you gotta actually control it. So many I have worked with can't get past the temptation to use that 100w half stack for what it was intended to be used for. I did a thing for an Ozzy Tribute recently and they had HUGE equipment but they were perfect. These dudes not only knew their stuff on their instruments but knew what type of environment they were working in and didn't "crank it up". They let me do my job and it was an awesome show all around. BTW they were at around 92db all night. Packed house all night til the end.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

I guess since nobody else will say it, I will...

The current breed of "concert goers" are very much pussified. Very much so, did I say pussified? Ok, I hope you get that.

People that go to see a band perform their (original) music, but get annoyed/butthurt that they can't talk (over it) all the way through it & be the center of attention (because the band is too loud) - pussies...

I went to the Roger Waters The Wall concert at the LA Coliseum. There was a bunch of those types there. It's like shut up Roger (& band) I want everybody to look at & listen to me, while I sit here & take selfies of myself & act like a little girl... (even though they are male)

If you want to party & be the center of attention - stay home & invite everyone over to come worship you.

I remember seeing Michael Schenker, & for example, he was playing Let It Roll. The song is high energy from the start, then, when the guitar solo comes, it gets nice & soft, w/ a nice little melody.

When it got to the guitar solo, the crowd's db level was almost 3x's the music. I could see that it threw Michael back, he was like , in the middle of playing his solo. He could have just stopped & nobody would have noticed... Well, I would have, but 90% of the loudmouths there wouldn't have...

When I pay money to go see a musical act, I go to see the act. I do not pay to try to get someone to jack off over my attention seeking whoredom, & I don't pay to see others doing that either...

I hate it when I pay good money to see a band & someone makes such a spectacle of themselves that you can not enjoy the show...

They should just stay TF home & if they want to support the band, buy a grateful friend the tickets, so they can enjoy the show...

Pussified lightweights annoy TF out of me...

there, I said it...

 

[jeffb]

I remember seeing Michael Schenker, & for example, he was playing Let It Roll. The song is high energy from the start, then, when the guitar solo comes, it gets nice & soft, w/ a nice little melody.

When it got to the guitar solo, the crowd's db level was almost 3x's the music. I could see that it threw Michael back, he was like , in the middle of playing his solo. He could have just stopped & nobody would have noticed... Well, I would have, but 90% of the loudmouths there wouldn't have...

Talking over Michael's Let it Roll Solo is punishable by ass-whooping. That's like talking over the Minister during a Eulogy.

 

[Mitchell Pearrow]

I guess since nobody else will say it, I will...

The current breed of "concert goers" are very much pussified. Very much so, did I say pussified? Ok, I hope you get that.

People that go to see a band perform their (original) music, but get annoyed/butthurt that they can't talk (over it) all the way through it & be the center of attention (because the band is too loud) - pussies...

I went to the Roger Waters The Wall concert at the LA Coliseum. There was a bunch of those types there. It's like shut up Roger (& band) I want everybody to look at & listen to me, while I sit here & take selfies of myself & act like a little girl... (even though they are male)

If you want to party & be the center of attention - stay home & invite everyone over to come worship you.

I remember seeing Michael Schenker, & for example, he was playing Let It Roll. The song is high energy from the start, then, when the guitar solo comes, it gets nice & soft, w/ a nice little melody.

When it got to the guitar solo, the crowd's db level was almost 3x's the music. I could see that it threw Michael back, he was like , in the middle of playing his solo. He could have just stopped & nobody would have noticed... Well, I would have, but 90% of the loudmouths there wouldn't have...

When I pay money to go see a musical act, I go to see the act. I do not pay to try to get someone to jack off over my attention seeking whoredom, & I don't pay to see others doing that either...

I hate it when I pay good money to see a band & someone makes such a spectacle of themselves that you can not enjoy the show...

They should just stay TF home & if they want to support the band, buy a grateful friend the tickets, so they can enjoy the show...

Pussified lightweights annoy TF out of me...

there, I said it...

Well said, and I think I would have been thrown out for trying to tell them all to shut TF up,,,