Should’ve went with what I knew to be true!

trax1139

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I've played w/ some damn good drummers & they are, & can be LOUD!
Absolutely! I’ll use Zep’s tune “What Is and What Should Never Be” as a good example of extreme dynamics. If you can pull that off with small low watt gear (no PA support) and fill a room with full, fat and a powerful tone, I’ll eat your hat. Oh yeah, you can be loud and then quiet, but, you won’t be big sounding. And THAT, IMHO is what causes people to complain that bands are too loud. They just don’t sound good.
 

ricksdisconnected

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I'm definitely not one of the mob...

Do I start dozens of anti-Gibson, anti-Marshall, anti-loud, threads?

&/or join in w/ the pitchforks & torches?


geezuz relax.
pull-ones-leg.png
 

marshallmellowed

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Absolutely! I’ll use Zep’s tune “What Is and What Should Never Be” as a good example of extreme dynamics. If you can pull that off with small low watt gear (no PA support) and fill a room with full, fat and a powerful tone, I’ll eat your hat. Oh yeah, you can be loud and then quiet, but, you won’t be big sounding. And THAT, IMHO is what causes people to complain that bands are too loud. They just don’t sound good.
That all sounds fine and dandy, you'll have to keep us informed of your upcoming gigs, what type they are (indoor, outdoor...), and how they went.
 

Matthews Guitars

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Thinking back, I have realized that I've had far more amps that were at least 40 watts than amps that were less than 40 watts, and actually most of the amps that were most memorable are 100 watters if not more. I had a 180 watt Fender Super Twin Reverb for a while. It was STUPID loud. Yes, louder than a full 100 watt Marshall stack. I've had two 150 watt Mesa Triple Rectifiers. But I've only owned TWO tube amps that were in the 20 watt class. Well, three, actually, but honestly I never thought
much of that silverface Champ I had for a while. So I kind of don't count it at all because I never used it.

I don't think I've ever been without an amp that puts out a minimum of 75 watts in the last 30 years.
 

Leonard Neemoil

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Starting a new Rock trio, I needed to gear up. Back in the day, I used a 100w Super Lead day in and day out in all situations. Life and the music was wonderful. But, nowadays all you hear and read on this forum is...it’s too loud, it’s too big, it’s too heavy and IT’S TOO LOUD! Did I say it’s too loud? Bedroom levels (what the hell is that?) 1x10 combos, 5w Super Lead Simulators, attenuate the attenuators, mic it up through the PA...and on and on. So, with all that brainwashing, I opted for the 35w Germino JTM45. Great amp! Hooked to 2 1960av 4x12 cabs, it sounds wonderful...just not nearly enough clean headroom and plain ol horsepower to keep up with a power drummer and Fender 300w Super Bassman. So, now it’s time to order the JTM 45/100 like I should have in the first place.

Yup, I agree. If you want clean headroom, you need 100 watts. I've made the 20, 30, 50 watt mistake before. Just doesn't work. All are capable of decent/excellent od sounds but clean headroom just sucks.

Well, times have changed and the audience wants...

...to hear the band/music without losing their hearing!

Boooo! Lol. :)
 
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Beltalowda

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Years ago I went to jam with a drummer I met at a music shop. I took my Peavey Classic 30 thinking 30 watts should be just fine. I guess technically it sorta worked out as far as volume, but I was only able to hang with him after diming everything as well as engaging the internal boost.

He was heavy-handed for sure, but still, I learned a valuable lesson on headroom that day.
 

bobpick68

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Mention that to any top act that is booked to be the entertainment and not the background music at some sports bar

Please point me to all these places in New Mexico. I'd love to play there. I am not exactly happy about the National "turn it down" crap that has happened all over the US these last 10 years or so but MarshallDog is spot on unfortunately and it is what it is. Take it from a working musician that's in 3 bands and runs sound for other bands.
 

bobpick68

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This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.
 

El Gringo

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#1... How can a drummer “gear down” unless it’s a plastic electronic set
#2...a band can’t play a quiet dynamic musical passage with little tinker toy gear that fills the room with fullness and power. So, it’s not just about loudness...quite the contrary.
Exactly true and that is the conundrum -to achieve good and proper TONE .
 

El Gringo

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This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.
Hard to disagree with your logic and it is the times that we are living in for sure . I am not going to lie to you as I would be a hassle with my half stacks , but when you write db # those don't lie and it makes me think of my ears .
 

bobpick68

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Exactly true and that is the conundrum -to achieve good and proper TONE .

I see "tone" when it comes to being in a band as a band thing. I wish more guitarists in bands did that. When I put an RTA on most guitar rigs they are so bass heavy it's ridiculous. All that does is muddy up the mix. if it's a room that's big enough to properly separate the stage volume from house volume it's all good because typically I will take my HPF on that channel and slide that baby up to about 130hz and that alone fixes quite a bit. Guitars in general should not live in anything under that.
 

El Gringo

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I see "tone" when it comes to being in a band as a band thing. I wish more guitarists in bands did that. When I put an RTA on most guitar rigs they are so bass heavy it's ridiculous. All that does is muddy up the mix. if it's a room that's big enough to properly separate the stage volume from house volume it's all good because typically I will take my HPF on that channel and slide that baby up to about 130hz and that alone fixes quite a bit. Guitars in general should not live in anything under that.
I swear you must have seen and heard my rig as I am very bass heavy . Sounds like you know your stuff and what you are doing for sure . It is so much more harder nowadays across the board with everything . Guitarists are so notorious for exactly what you have written about and it has to be a tremendous pain in the keyster for the Sound Man .
 

bobpick68

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I swear you must have seen and heard my rig as I am very bass heavy . Sounds like you know your stuff and what you are doing for sure . It is so much more harder nowadays across the board with everything . Guitarists are so notorious for exactly what you have written about and it has to be a tremendous pain in the keyster for the Sound Man .

Oh I certainly enjoy some thump when I am at home playing for sure. Luckily I learned fairly early on that it generally doesn't work in a live band mix. I have been gigging fairly regular now for about 35 years and it hasn't really changed.
 

trax1139

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This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.
Here come the PA systems!
 

El Gringo

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Oh I certainly enjoy some thump when I am at home playing for sure. Luckily I learned fairly early on that it generally doesn't work in a live band mix. I have been gigging fairly regular now for about 35 years and it hasn't really changed.
So True !
 

trax1139

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This was a post I made the other day on another forum..

What it comes down to is a sound person should be able to work with anything loud enough to be heard on stage or run direct. What is impossible to work with are people playing small clubs and cranking their half stacks so loud it buries the PA System. I own scalable systems that "can" get over any full stack you throw at it but I am doing local club gigs and smallish outdoor venues. Half stacks and 100w tube amps were designed for much larger venues. This is a fact.

Now, I have worked with many bands that know how to use a half stack properly in a smaller venue but TBH lately they are getting fewer and farther between. Is it the new region I work in now? Maybe. I know back east the direct thing was really catching fire a couple years ago and yes I much prefer that, but I certainly don't treat anyone any differently no matter what they show up with. I may have a talk with the band members about stage volume beforehand and if I get a soundcheck I will try to keep them in check beforehand but I cant be on stage with people during the performance so I cant control their volume knobs.

I have packed up in the middle of a gig once. It was a well known metal/hard rock cover band in the area that was having a reunion show. 2 full Marshall stacks and a 3,000 watt bass rig. Honestly I should have never taken the gig to begin with but they were/are friends of mine. From their first aural barrage the patrons ran for the doors. They started with about 200 people and by the time I packed up and left after the 2nd set there were about 10 people not counting the staff. I asked them nicely after the first set to turn way down and was ignored. Actually the more people that left, the louder they turned up. They played well and weren't out of tune, they just were way too loud for this venue. 117db @ 10ft is what I measured that night.

These were guys in their 40's and 50's. Experienced players, good players and they acted like children.

In general I dont run into this stuff too much but I have had players tell me they know how to control their volume properly and yada yada only to turn around and blast the first couple rows of people so hard they leave.

Trust me I get it. I love cranking my 100w tube head through a 4x12. It's almost a religious experience. Unfortunately small to medium venues that serve food and booze aren't the place for it typically.

It is what it is. Times have changed. Smaller venues (50-250 cap) especially ones that serve booze and food want their patrons to be able to communicate with the servers and bar staff without screaming. The days of smoky bars with rock bands blasting their half stacks at people are pretty much over. There are some that still appreciate that but not very many. I do miss those days as a performer.

The choice I made was to stay playing music for people at tolerable volumes. I shoot for 85-90db @ 10ft whether it's a band I am in or a band I am doing sound for. That's loud but it's not enough to drive most people out.
Why do we sound guys use 4 JBL SRX 728s and a QSC 5050 amp on each one just to get a fat kick drum?
 

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