Rip Offs

Discussion in 'Other Amps' started by NewReligion, May 27, 2015.

  1. NewReligion

    NewReligion Well-Known Member Double Platinum Supporting Member VIP Member

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    Go back far enough it is all common DNA. My point is there are tricks to capture certain qualities and some can't be figured out unless there is some idea as to what to look for. Example (not that I would...DANGER...) short out the primaries. working around CF...tone stack's...filtering and voltage changes at appropriate points.

    I believe there is a difference between figuring things out and obtaining a a relatively new circuit addition and renaming it to **** someone else over for profit.

    Had no idea I would stir this much **** lol. I love my BE 100, Cameron 2204, stock Marshall's and home brew's. But I think it stinks when others rip someone off right out of the gate and ...well I am beating a dead horse obviously.

    David ♫
     
  2. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member

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    Epoxy resin encapsulation, if you do not mind the extra weight.
     
  3. rmroza

    rmroza Active Member

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    My $0.02

    It's really hard and/or a pain the ass to protect intellectual property on amp as most as indicated is basically open source. Some folks have come up with some new innovations and successfully copyrighted and patented it, but it's far and few in between and even if someone violated them, it's a big pain in the ass to police if you ask me and why many people don't waste their time. Tariff and what not protecting local interests I think is like Democrats thinking we need a law for everything and gets you nothing but 10,000+ gun laws and no one knows wtf it says! I think the current system as-is is fine if you think about it. If someone just doesn't have the fund, as my grandfather said, "you BUY cheap, you GOT cheap"...you want to buy from Ceriatone or Blades, you really have an inferior product, with no custom parts (like iron), possibly built by foreigners and at their wages, and if things go wrong and warranty...good luck. This is the price you pay for cheap...you get ****, sorry.

    It's already public knowledge, Marshall ripped off Fender, Fender ripped off CBS, etc.

    As far as cost, well, it take a long time to produce an amp and it's labor intensive. As stated, the parts are basically under $1000 and when in bulk. You're paying for labor and labor rates between a person with no formal title or training, a barber or tattoo artist, and a real technician or engineer vary differently from say $15 to $100/hr is huge when you multiply that by...20 to 40 hours of labor. When I cost out say a BE-100 from Dave Friedman, what I and you would find out is it's really priced correctly! Some people may bitch, but really they are out of line, it really is appropriate for their labor rate and quality you are getting. I retail my stuff for the same price. If I give a discount to friends, family, or some folks, and get them a similar amp for say $2400 or $2800 (which people pay), it's with the acknowledgement that I'm losing money and not at my personal labor rate per hour. It is, what it is and if you can't afford it, maybe one day you will and pay people for their worth and what you're getting or the alternative is to build it yourself and hopefully not get shocked or killed and if you actually have knowledge 100% of the design and BOM.

    As far as Friedman stuff, some folks earlier in the thread identified the newer black PCB's as possible countermeasures for reverse engineering his stuff. I don't necessarily think that is the case. I mean it's slightly harder to see, but I can confirm you can make out everything and without X-raying or what not and I personally have all of the following PCB's 100% - Smallbox, BE-100, Steve Stevens, Double JJ, Phil X!...but don't ask. I'm not distributing so that some barber or garbage man can have just enough knowledge to be dangerous and think they are "the best amp builder in the world" lol

    I likewise don't know what the statements "Cameron out of business" means. I mean, the Cameron line?? All business ventures with Mark whether Dave, George, Brad, Rob, or Jason are dead. This is true...but Mark is still MODing and doing stuff. Don't any one **** you. I seen and heard some recent amps earlier in the year, just no formal "business" and if history is any indicator and no matter how anyone thinks, folks just can't work with Mark and he is better off solo. I'm not soo certain his "collaborative" amps are 100% his total designs, fyi. They only include portions and other things completely missing. If you happen to get 1. a completely handbuilt amp from him, or 2. MODed, but gooped the **** out of, you MAY have the complete deal, but I do not thing the Atomica, Old Bitch, and possible CCV may be all inclusive! Why?? I have a handbuilt one from him and it appears to be "the" Atomica design as similarities to the collaborative amp with plate resistor values or "gain style" rotary knob, but the collaboratives used Friedman and Metropolouses transformer selections, tonestack, phase inverter, bias and power sections that are QUITE different! I won't be specific on anything and talk to Mark and promised not to share his designs, so going to stick to my word, but I guarantee you, it's quite different! The man is a mad scientist indeed and still doing things with amps. It's what makes him $$$ and to live.

    In the end, I'm fairly happy with the way things are. not great, but it is what it is and no real solution and to "cloners" other than if you buy from a cloner and not the real designer, you're getting what you paid for and either you have a Friedman, Cameron, Rozsa, or Marshall....or you don't and you'll have to deal with the value, quality, and warranty, and tone of THAT amp you choose to spend your coin on, but again, you buy cheap, you got cheap!
     
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  4. NewReligion

    NewReligion Well-Known Member Double Platinum Supporting Member VIP Member

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    Excellent. Well said indeed. Mark was kind enough to spend 3 hours on the phone with me discussing circuits, I found it to be a great experience. I believe he is willing to "correct" the "non-Cameron" Cameron Atomica. Damn shame actually but not for me to speak of.

    I adore my gooped Cameron 2204 with NO diodes. Hot MOFO. I love my BE 100 and now I am excited about my own builds as well.

    My Cameron came with white chicken heads and inverted power/stand by switches dating it as quite old according to Mark. Quite a thought provoking series of mods to say the least. To say I have not learned from this would be a lie. I changed quite a lot to my liking as it should be. I also believe that MC tunes each modded amp individually.

    But I would never make my findings public or start a company that reverse engineers some of the latest and greatest then rename it in order to sell it to the public.

    I am happy for those who are afforded the opportunity to own these circuits (how ever close as they might be or not) since they are available.

    My interest is in collecting real Cameron gooped non-diode clipping Marshall's...like a ****ing Easter egg hunt.

    Thanks RMROZA

    David ♫
     
  5. Moose Lewis

    Moose Lewis Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who has ever had a song, circuit or software taken can empathize with your feelings on the subject, David. Sometimes it's hard to decide what is for the good and what is just dead wrong on that subject though.

    What if Jim Marshall had never had a Fender Bassman analyzed? I have zero amp tech skills beyond wiring up a cable, but as I understand it - he copied the Bassman resourcing local suppliers in England for parts, resulting in a new form of that amp.

    Not trying to be a smart-ass... just reflecting.
    Cheers
     
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  6. NewReligion

    NewReligion Well-Known Member Double Platinum Supporting Member VIP Member

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    Hello my old friend. I understand and agree completely about the evolution of the guitar amplifier.

    However we are at a point that companies are "taking" from each other with little or no consequence.

    To go ahead for the first time and be specific....Mark Cameron entered into agreement with Dave Friedman, George Metropoulos and Brad King. One of the products to be assimilated was the Cameron Atomica...even after Mark resolved from the group the others went on with a design not approved by Mark (i.e. Mark will rework these amps for those who purchased the later editions). Now comes Nik from Ceriaclone and reverse engineers it and calls it a King Kong.

    Is there a difference? IDK, that is for you to say but it sure rubs me the wrong way.

    Now I know there is always 2 or 3 sides to every story but I have been fortunate enough to spend time on the phone taking some lessons from one of these individuals after he contacted me. Very cool guy, awesome indeed, with some serious innovative techniques. I hear time and again it's all been done...to that I say BS as I too have reverse engineered work but will never divulge or market those idea's or any of my own.

    IMO for a tone chasing freak like myself, Marshall provides a great platform to move forward with but much of the "clean amp" assemblies can be done away with and replaced by newer concepts to arrive at a better balanced color of brown. Mind you I am only speaking of high gain amplification. This excludes amps like Peter Diezels VH4 which I believe to be a work of art IMO.

    Lately I have not been getting along well with the idea's and opinions of many members here. I unfortunately no longer give a ****. If a TS9 into a JCM 800 2203 is your magic box then cool but for some person to say "well if you don't play a stock Marshall you should not be here"...well frankly **** off stupid. EVH knew in 1974 stock sucked and started innovations...by 1978 I heard it live and man was it history. It is still evolving.

    I have enjoyed my time here at the MF and tried to be a productive member but am meeting up against some junior personalities that I find intolerable so I will be posting only on rare occasion.

    Kind of weird as I left our secret group due to one tech sending me a text about "tell me you are not going to reverse engineer his work and use it". Pissed me off. Not my style...in addition to attitudes there as well. And so what if I did.?.?

    Think I will go spend a bit more time with Francois at Marshall Heads and a couple other sites where they talk about music, tone and build...not back stage nothing to do BS.

    Feel free to PM me anytime Moose.

    Later, David aka New Religion, Twisted Christian ♫

    EDIT due to spelling:
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
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  7. solarburnDSL50

    solarburnDSL50 Well-Known Member Platinum Supporting Member

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    Damn man. I enjoy listening to Marshall circuits that have been tweaked as well as other amps in general. I agree Marshall has a great platform to start from. Many times I've wanted mine tailored to my ears. If I knew how to do it myself I would. In fact that would be ideal because I know best what my ears are looking for and what my hands want to feel. You're fortunate David you know how to do this.

    If others look at it in an unfavorable way for whatever reason then they have their own agendas. I don't see you exploiting builds or tweaks so I don't see any evil done. Man if I could tweak my own amps I'd be stoked. I'd also do some for family and select friends. Share my version of an amp voiced nicely or what I consider good. I wouldn't worry bout anyone reverse engineering my **** cause I wouldn't be selling it. Much has already been done but that doesn't mean you can't find some sweet tweaks that really make an amp talk. I think you have.

    Maybe the differences are only shades but tone and feel one way or the other can make a world of difference playing and enjoyment wise. True also that even the best tone and feel needs to be set down for awhile cause we get tired of it. It loses its appeal until we try something else and then find all over again why we like said amp and its tone and feel.

    As far as forum members and what they think...it's a 2 way street. I clean my side and that's it. I don't even have an ignore list cause I can do it without making one. It's my own protest against my ego playing victim. I operate the same way here as I do away. Like you I take breaks when I need them.

    Anyways enjoy your builds and have fun conversing with amp techs...and I use that word "fun" loosely. Good, bland or bitter it is what it is.
     
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  8. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member

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    David
    Sometimes I say things that can be taken the wrong way. I know I said something somewhere in a similar fashion. You never really know the state of mind of some people at any given moment or how they will react to things. I know you are not talking about me though because 1) I do not text and 2) I would not call myself a "tech". :D
    Oh yeah 3) I belong to no secret societies.

    The thing is there are plenty of people here that enjoy your comments, ideas, work, playing and camaraderie. Keep in good spirits with them, not worry about the others.
    There is nothing wrong with visiting other sites too.

    Like Solarburn said "have fun", just have fun and piss on the rest. :D :D
     
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  9. wakjob

    wakjob Well-Known Member

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    This is where I've been at since the holidays.

    Usually I'm pretty tolerant & forgiving in regards to internet forum behavior and opinions, but a few months ago I just hit my breaking point.

    I know what I know, and I like what I like. And I won't be told any different.

    To have someone who doesn't even know what end of a soldering iron gets hot let alone being capable of doing some very simple tube swapping &/or amp maintenance telling me that stock amps are the end all be all...

    it just gets old man.
     
  10. breakfastbuddy

    breakfastbuddy New Member

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    or heat
     
  11. Ufoscorpion

    Ufoscorpion Well-Known Member

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    Mobile phones , tv’s , coffee makers , guitar amps and 1000’s of other electrical goods ( and non electric come to think of it ) , could be argued the same applies there’s no getting away from it now it’s too late to do anything about it . As someone made the very good point , is it ok to copy someone’s guitar design but not amp designs ?
     
  12. GibsonKramer

    GibsonKramer Well-Known Member

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    I'm still laughing at the now 4 year old prediction tube amps are dying and modeling is the future... :lol:
     
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  13. Ufoscorpion

    Ufoscorpion Well-Known Member

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    Tube amps won’t die there will always be someone building them . Tubes on the other hand ????
     
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  14. ampmadscientist

    ampmadscientist Well-Known Member

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    All previous attempts to replace tube amps with solid state have failed.
    Starting about 1969 when fender created the solid state amps that nobody would buy.
    Since then Ampeg, Marshall, etc have created SS amps but always went back to tubes because musicians wouldn't buy the SS products.

    There will be no changeover to modeling amps, it's a short lived fad.
    The SS modeling amps won't last, they will work for a few years then they will go into the trashcan.

    A few people(maybe 5% or less) will buy modeling amps, the majority will buy real tube amps.
     
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  15. Filipe Soares

    Filipe Soares Well-Known Member

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    the overall quality of ampsims and ss stuff is much higher, but in the end of the day a real amp is a real amp. the only difference is: nowadays you have an option to have a good tone, 10 years ago you didn't.
     
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  16. SonVolt

    SonVolt Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I made a lot of those remarks back in '15 and I still don't own a modeler in 2019... just 3 100w Tube amps. That said, I still hold by my statements that modeling is the future.
     
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  17. Matt_Krush

    Matt_Krush Well-Known Member

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    Modelers are great for at home players, recording studios and the sound techs.
    Light, easy to lug around, consistent.
    (I am not implying they aren't great for guitarists as well)

    I've seen the arguments online and from my own guitar player..."So and so all switched to Axe/Kemper/whoever"
    Trust me, most of those guitarists can't set the clock on their microwave let alone navigate any of these modeling devices.
    at home and at rehearsal they are using their old rigs...a head and a cab.
    Someone else is plugging them into the modelers....and most of those bands that say they switched, still use a head and cab onstage, but their guitar signal is split to a modeler for the house/PA. But you know, an endorsement deal is an endorsement deal so they'll say anything for $$$.

    My guitarist had his headrush for 3 months now....getting him to make a simple adjustment because his lead patch is buried..."Dude WTF? lets go" (Feels like it takes for ever for a simple adjustment, but you know, scroll, search, adjust, save, test, try again,....instead of grabbing a knob)

    There is just as much turn over in people buying the latest and greatest modeler gadget as there are guys that flip heads chasing tone.
    Some of the turn over is they are gadget geeks. Like a cell phone, they have to have the newest one for bragging rights.
    Some is genuine reliability issues.

    I am old.
    Stacks or even 1/2 stacks look cool.
    They give an impression of a professional band (as long as the heads and cabs match)
    They intimidate bands with little combos
    Seeing a stage with no amplifiers looks to me like an acoustic jam session or some jazz bs, not an act that their act together.
     
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  18. ampmadscientist

    ampmadscientist Well-Known Member

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    Everything is just a copy of Fender Bassman, with more stages added.
    Without Bassman there would have been nothing to copy. There would be no loud.

    What if you had a really cool original idea, but didn't want to install it because you knew everybody would copy it?
    Then you would miss the glory, or would you?
     
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  19. Frodebro

    Frodebro Well-Known Member

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    As long as nostalgia reigns there will be a place for tube amps. Hell, I have over a dozen of them myself because I was raised to believe they were superior. Up until about a decade ago this was the truth. Nowadays, it's not.

    However, modeling will not be the demise of tube amps. Modeling is a solution to the problems that, however, WILL see their usage decline slowly but steadily.

    The obvious one is tube production. Can't do it in the west because it's a dirty process and prohibitively expense these days.

    The music industry is a shadow of its former self. Artists must now rely on touring and merchandise to support themselves, streaming has killed their royalties from album sales. The record companies no longer have the big bucks invested in supporting them, so touring budgets are much tighter. Cartage is a real liability financially.

    Local venues are dwindling due to a multitude of reasons, and those remaining are often pushing for much lower stage volumes than in decades past. Silent stages are a thing now, too.

    Modern popular music is largely not guitar driven, which also has an impact on gear sales (as well as the live music scene). Turntables and samplers are selling like crazy.

    This is the reality. Unpopular as it may be to us old-school guitar players, we're living in a new world.
     
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  20. NewReligion

    NewReligion Well-Known Member Double Platinum Supporting Member VIP Member

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    Oh yes for certain I do understand that. I have discovered how amazing it is to manipulate this circuit from input to NFB then Power Tube Grids in order to achieve diversity.

    Clean vs Mean requires extreme changes throughout the entire circuit to be accomplished successfully.

    My $.02

    David
     
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