Modellers are getting closer...

Discussion in 'The Cellar' started by wkcchampion, May 31, 2010.

  1. wkcchampion

    wkcchampion New Member

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    Exaggerated. They sound both good and many people liked them.
    Ad both would do very well in a mix with other instruments (bass, drums, vocals..)
     
  2. Iron Mang

    Iron Mang New Member

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    I don't speak Italian or claim to, but I got Pig, Shit and speaker out of that. Which kinda makes a point?
     
  3. jcmjmp

    jcmjmp Well-Known Member

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    I think that most people would get the jist of it. :lol:
     
  4. MonstersOfTheMidway

    MonstersOfTheMidway Well-Known Member

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    The Fractal AxeFX sounds interesting, Marco. I think I need to look into this one a little more.

    I think that the modelers are invaluable in the studio and as an emergency back up at a gig, but I'd never believe they'll ever get it 100% dead on to a tube amp and cabinet rig. Useful tool indeed.
     
  5. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    Ok here's a raw sample of my 1968 Model 1987 50 watt with a 1975 Gibson SG plugged straight in and using a 1960TV 4x12" cab with G12-25M speakers; miked with one SM57. Do you have a modeler that can do that?

    http://members.cox.net/takanohana/1987raw.mp3
     
  6. jcmjmp

    jcmjmp Well-Known Member

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    Awesome tone, Major. Love the way that gently goes into feedback. No computer can mimmick that. Some people just don't get it, do they?
     
  7. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    Well thank you sir, but that tone credit has to go to my daughter; that was her & her settings w/ her SG. But you are right there is lot of feel without a ton of distortion to make it sound big. And you are right about the way is slides right into feedback. And I want to see the puter box that can duplicate that. And I think some of them will never get it.

    Jesus, Joseph and Mary we bloody agreed on something lets go have some handles and get pissed!
     
  8. wkcchampion

    wkcchampion New Member

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    It is possible to get a modeller go into feedback. Just put the guitar against the monitors set loud.

    And sincerely Major, there's nothing special about that tone, and u can't really say basing on that that mine is BS, you're not honest.
    But it's helpful, as it's the demonstration that the IRs I have are very close to perfection!
    I also think that an SM57 alone is not enough - and many on audio recording forums always say to blend several mics in different positions.

    Working with IRs my favourite combination is a Royer R121 close on the cap center, to exploit its proximity effect, and an SM57 on the cap edge; or MD421 cone and SM57 on cap center. And some condenser mics like Neumann U87 or U67 in Far Field for room ambience. Some even use drumkick mics to get more bass from the cabinet, especially for modern hi gain. I don't like it much with the music I play though.
    In fact, most recordings are made like that. I noticed that the mics are panned left and right to enhance the stereo imaging. Take the first EVH album for example: two SM57s on the left, far field mics on the right.

    Also, I don't understand why you have this hate against modellers. As said, not everyone can afford a full rigged studio to record a tube amp. For the money, current modellers do very very good.
     
  9. jcmjmp

    jcmjmp Well-Known Member

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    That's what you're missing though... Its not the same at all with a modeller and the type of feedback in the Major's clip is not the kind of feedback that you get from sticking your guitar in front of monitors.

    It doesn't even have to be that loud to get the feedback that Major got in that clip. Its all about getting the right frequencies interacting with the guitar's body wood, strings and pickups.

    What you suggest is akin to sticking a mic in front of a monitor. Will it feedback, yes. Will it sound good? No. Will you have the same control over it? No.

    Either you don't want to understand or you just never experienced playing a nice guitar through a nice, cranked Marshall at band volumes.
     
  10. wkcchampion

    wkcchampion New Member

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    No.. it's that I DON'T CARE uahahahahaha
     
  11. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    It is possible to get a modeller go into feedback. Just put the guitar against the monitors set loud.

    First of all my daughter is standing about three meters from the amp with the amp volume on 7. With a real all tube amp you get sustain and feedback with out resorting to laying the guitar on the monitors/speakers. lol

    And sincerely Major, there's nothing special about that tone, and u can't really say basing on that that mine is BS, you're not honest.
    But it's helpful, as it's the demonstration that the IRs I have are very close to perfection!
    I also think that an SM57 alone is not enough - and many on audio recording forums always say to blend several mics in different positions.

    Well you are entitled to your opinion or your ears are buggered? And I couldn’t really understand the rest of your sentence or what IRs is? You have “very close to perfect” what? Um the purpose we used a single SM57 was to keep the recording as pure and simple as possible so that you can hear the amp un-colored and in its true state.

    Working with IRs my favourite combination is a Royer R121 close on the cap center, to exploit its proximity effect, and an SM57 on the cap edge; or MD421 cone and SM57 on cap center. And some condenser mics like Neumann U87 or U67 in Far Field for room ambience. Some even use drumkick mics to get more bass from the cabinet, especially for modern hi gain. I don't like it much with the music I play though.
    In fact, most recordings are made like that. I noticed that the mics are panned left and right to enhance the stereo imaging. Take the first EVH album for example: two SM57s on the left, far field mics on the right.

    I’ve miked more Marshall in live & studio situations then you’ve had haircuts. So thanks for the lesson in mic positioning, but I don’t need it and never did.

    Also, I don't understand why you have this hate against modellers. As said, not everyone can afford a full rigged studio to record a tube amp. For the money, current modellers do very very good.

    “Also, I don't understand why you have this hate against modellers.” You R-tard I own a Digitech RP355, I don’t hate modelers, I am saying they don’t sound like the real thing and never will!
     
  12. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Some folks never get it and never will!
     
  13. wkcchampion

    wkcchampion New Member

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    1 - 1 and ball to the centre yuppi!ù
    And actually you r the R-tard, the Digitech RP series are surely behind the software I made the clip with (and try to argue with this! They DO NOT use any convolution technology). So please insult someone else ok? Cool down.
     
  14. nofearfactor

    nofearfactor Member

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    I have. And still do. But I use a modeler centered rack rig now and for a reason that not many other modeler users use theirs for I think. There is a use for them other than trying to simulate an amps tone,which I'm not trying to do at all. And there also is a place,for me anyways, for both types of rigs in my playing and I use both.

    I started out in 86' at 16 when I first started playing electric and in my first rock band after spending 9 years in classical lessons with a JMP50/pedals/1960 rig. Then I went to a JCM800 2203/pedals/1960 rig in 89' and played thru that rig for years. In 94' I went to a Peavey 5150/pedals,rack signal processors/5150 cabs rig for 5 years. In 99' I went to a Mesa MKIV/pedals,rack signal processors/recto cabs rig for another 5 years or so. In 03' I was playing in an extreme metal band so needing more power and flexibility I started ABYing the JCM800 on one side and alternating between either the MKIV or the 5150 on the other side. Standing in front of not one but two cranked all tube amps- a cranked 100watt tube amp on one side and a cranked 120watt tube amp on the other side- was pure bliss for metal.

    But when I started playing in an industrial/metal band my old rigs just werent getting me the tones I needed for the new band so I started experimenting with using rack gear only because of the type of music I had started playing,no other reason. I will always love standing in front of cranked tube amps. I did it for close to 20 years of playing. But it just didnt work out for the more futuristic sounds I needed to bring to the table playing industrial metal. A cold,sterile,digital metal tone is what I was after. Just changeing to using EMG81s in all of my guitars wasnt enough to nail that type of tone. I in no way was after a warm organic overdriven tone with great feedback,etcetc- just the opposite.

    I tried to make the 3 heads that I own work for me. I was running a dual mono rig ABYing 2 of the heads with a Radial Switchbone and used all digital stereo in/out modulation, delay and reverb pedals on my floorboard and a small rack of signal processors running in/out of the effects loops of the amps. Each head had its own 4x12 cab or I ran into one 1960 on stereo for small venues and rehearsals. It was a pain to setup and teardown night after night but I didnt mind. It was the sounds I was trying to get though that wasnt working for me. I had this big dual mono rig,but I wasnt getting the true stereo digital sound that I wanted and needed. Playing with a synth/keys/samples/DJ guy and a drummer with electronic drums/samples I needed to meld with their tones and style. Analog gear just wasnt cutting it.

    I'm not new to rack rigs,just modelers. Ive used rack rigs along with my head/pedals/cabs rigs for years. The first rack rig I ever built was a Peavey Rockmaster preamp/Alesis Quadraverb effects processor/Peavey Classic 120-120 tube power amp. Then I builta rig using a JMP-1 preamp/Rocktron Intellifex effects processor/Marshall 9200 power amp/1960s. After that I went to a Mesa Triaxis/Rocktron Prophesy/2:90 or Strategy 400/recto cabs rig. None of those rigs though were going to get me the tones that I had in my head for my new band.

    Then I bought my first Digitech GSP1101 preamp/effects processor after hearing good things about it from Glen Drover(formerly of Megadeth) and Rob Arnold (Chimaira). Instead of using it though as usual with my other tube preamps and power amps I experimented with using it as a stand alone preamp/effects processor paired up with my old 9200 tube power amp into a couple of cabs. And there it was- the cold,sterile,digital tone that I was looking for. Then when the AX-FX came out and I tried one it was so awesome that I bought one. I am still using the GSP1101s but am starting to use the Fractal more and more. I just dont have a backup yet to be using it only. When I get a 2nd unit to have for a backup I will still probably be using the GSP1101s though because I love em.

    What I also love about the AX-FX and the GSP1101s are their many configuration possibilities. I can run any one or all 3 of my 3 tube heads into the preamp/processors and integrate an exterior tube preamp with the interior digital/modeling preamp- giving me the ability to use either preamp or mix and match the preamps if I want or need to. That is total flexibility.

    Not all of us rack rig guys are trying to emulate,copy,imitate,whatever a cranked tube amp- not me anyways. IT CANT BE DONE. I own 3 badassed very different tube amps and when I want or need that type of sound I have it already. I'm using a digital stereo modeler into a 200watt all tube power amp for the type of tones that you CAN'T get out of using a cranked tube amp. And I'll be the first person to tell you that NO modeler can now or will EVER in the future duplicate what a tube amp can do,but,as well,a tube amp/floorboard pedals/cab rig CAN NOT duplicate what a digital stereo modeler/stereo tube power amp/stereo cab rig can do either. Goes both ways.

    I imagine that some guys using modelers think that they are simulating what a real tube amp sounds like- if they are then they are delusional or did too much acid back in the day. A modeler if used like I am using one though is great for what it is and what it can do- be convenient, and have a stereo digital tone library. Nothing else.

    IMO there are places for both types of rigs. Blues,pop,punk,country,and rock players will always be after that coveted warm organic overdriven tone of a tube amp,whether its cranked to 10 or running half throttle. Some metal guys will always probably be putting distortion pedals in front of cranked tube amps for their over saturated tones too.

    But,there is a new world order of musicians using these digital stereo modeler preamp/stereo power amp/stereo cab rigs and their numbers are growing. I post at The Gear Page,Huge Racks Inc,and other forums where modeler/power amp rigs are being used in a big way and its becoming big business. And I see it as a growing trend. Its here to stay folks, and the technology and gear is only going to get better as the popularity of the AX-FX,the GSP1101 and the ElevenRack has spurred other companies to put money in R&D to come up with their own products to jump on the bandwagon. Tube amps will NEVER die. From the big companies like Marshall to small company/builders like Jon Wilder- amp builders will always have a market for their amps as tube amp lovers will always want their tube amps. They will never be replaced by these cyborg digital rigs any more than robots replaced the American worker according to the fears in the 50s of robotics taking over for humans on the assembly lines in the workplace of the future. There is robotic and machine technology doing a large portion of the work in industry today but humans are also right there working right alongside them. Same as these two types of rigs. The two technologies can either stand alone,compete with each other, or be combined- as I have done. I see a place for both myself. As a flexible modern metal musician I see the use in using as much different gear and as much technology as I can to do what it is I like to do- and thats play music.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  15. Bret138

    Bret138 New Member

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    I'm starting to wonder what it would sound like to set it up this way...

    Use the traditional guitar straight into cranked tube amp so you get all the feel and guitar/speaker interaction..BUT split the signal before the amp and use a direct box to send the dry signal into the modeler of your choice..would that sound any more realistic? I'm thinking a bit..but still not up to par with the traditional method.

    Wish i had the ability to try that right now, and if anyone does and would be willing to i would like to hear the results
     
  16. wkcchampion

    wkcchampion New Member

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    I think it would sound exactly the same.
    The main problem of older modellers is that they don't employ any convolution reverb, so the cabinet simulation is poor and can't reproduce all those "spikes" present in the frequency response graph of a real guitar speaker cabinet. Basically they're just an EQ to approximate this graph, but lack all those nuances of a real cabinet, sounding a bit "plastic".
    The amps are often simulated like an OD stompbox, with more or less gain and a different tone-stack. Thus the lack of dynamics.

    The AxeFX uses FEM to accurately reproduce every single component of an amp (from resistors to LEDs), and convolution reverb to give a vitually perfect ambience feel to cabinets. The latter appears to be used by Guitar Rig 4, Amplitube 3, Revalver 3 and Overloud TH1.
     
  17. nofearfactor

    nofearfactor Member

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    Weird that a band like 'Lamb of God' with their distinct Mesa MKIV tones live uses 'Amp Farm' in the studio to record with.
     
  18. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    I hear & agree with you, your point is well taken and well expressed. Obviously you are a working professional Musician and you sound has to evolve accordingly. I've been involved in the Music Industry in one way or another for the last 32 years. But to hear some INTERNET, ProTools, Macbook using fool tell me a modeler sound just like the real thing "BULLSHIT"! Oh by the way I taught Wilder everything he thinks he knows!
     
  19. Wilder Amplification

    Wilder Amplification New Member

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    Get stuffed you bloody panty sniffing shrimp on the barbie wanker!
     
  20. MajorNut1967

    MajorNut1967 New Member

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    IS that any way to talk to your dear ol' Dad. I mean you know you could for real, I used to fuck Buffalo and you sure look like you Mum.
     

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