Help needed to date this greenback!

Discussion in 'Cabinets & Speakers' started by Garth Rocket, Dec 7, 2021.

  1. Garth Rocket

    Garth Rocket Member

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    I feel lame that I can’t figure this out, but I know someone here will know when these speakers were made. The cabs for sale and I was told it was a 1969. Maybe the cabinet is? But at the moment I’m trying to figure out the speakers. Thank you in advance for your assistance!

    A little more info, the handles are metal and the back is plywood rather than particle board. CC0B7695-7884-4A1E-B697-0591B63EEB21.jpeg 9E3657DC-00F9-4C74-A5BC-FC6FDFD56595.jpeg A03B9DED-A79E-44ED-AC23-080DB27F3413.jpeg
     

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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  2. fitz288

    fitz288 Well-Known Yinzer Gold Supporting Member

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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  3. stratburst

    stratburst Active Member

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    1969 speaker in a 69 cab.
     
  4. fitz288

    fitz288 Well-Known Yinzer Gold Supporting Member

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    please explain - just curious.
    wouldn't '69 be date format "MYDD", so "_ B _ _"?
    upload_2021-12-7_23-18-39.png
     
  5. Garth Rocket

    Garth Rocket Member

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    I’m not sure if the cab is a ‘69 or not, but the speakers aren’t as the codes don’t match. The other thing I noticed was there were no white letters or numbers stamped on the cones
     
  6. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    Note that at least the plastic cover shows it to be "Pre-Rola" but the date code doesn't jibe with that! Old covers are fairly easy to glue on to new speakers. My guess is that sometime in the past, someone tried (and maybe succeeded) to pass off/sell a '92 speaker as a high priced '69 Pre-Rola? Of course, it may have been as innocent as just puuting any cover that seemed to match the model? A cone stamp (if there was one) might help tell the real story! Cone looks kinda like a fresh/new, re-cone to me. I hope it's not a Waldom! Detailed pics with it out of the cab might help.
    Just My :2c:,
    Gene
     
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  7. Matthews Guitars

    Matthews Guitars Well-Known Member

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    Let me puzzle it out using the Bygone Tones pages...

    If you follow along with me and refer to the Bygone Tones pages, you'll see me figure it out step by step.

    https://www.bygonetones.com/how-to-date-vintage-celestion-greenbacks.html

    The B is the fifth character, which should be the inspection code. Ignore it in that case.
    But...it may be that the inspection character comes first. That can happen, apparently.

    V22K...
    K is the month, October, because the month CAN'T be V. Simple logic.
    The 22 is the day of the month.

    That leave the V to figure out. What years had V in them?
    1987 and 2010.

    Be aware that the codes weren't always in the same formats.
    It's always either DDMY or MYDD. The numbers are always together and either are the first two characters,
    or the last two.

    But yet yours has the format V22KB...it's none of those. So the assumption is that the inspection stamp has been
    put in front of the code instead of behind it.

    Yet, it matches to example C on the How To Date Vintage Celestion Greenbacks page...and in fact the stamp is vertical and on the frame leg, which is right for '69 onwards.

    And the gold speaker label is "type D" which indicates production between August '68 and April '71.
    Assuming V is the inspection stamp, your code is 22KB, which follows a standard code sequence.

    In that case...
    K, if it's a month, is October. So B could be years....1969, 1992, or 2016.

    As the Bygone Tones page indicates, some rare creambacks had reversed month and year codes.
    In that case, if this is that, then B would be the month, February, and K, the year, which could only be
    1977 or 2000.


    Here's a photo of a 1973 original Greenback I own.

    Date code BF16V.
    V is the inspection stamp, ignore it.
    So, knowing that the numbers 16 are the day of the month, we are only concerned with
    the BF code. And that is....February (B) 1973 (F). Which is right and matches up with the
    color change that happens to the green plastic magnet cover with age.

    Almost NEVER do you find a 40 year old Greenback with a magnet cover that's still the original green.


    GB BF date code.jpg



    Taking all factors into account, your speaker was made on October 22, 1969. It's the only answer that fits ALL the evidence.

    Type D pre-Rola label. 1969 year code, October 22 month and day.
     
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  8. metromutt

    metromutt Well-Known Member

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    Following the gasket stamps, the first frame stamps in '68 and into the early part of '69 were stamped with the codes so they read round on the frame not upwards on the leg. Also a good indicator of pre '73ish was the smooth paint finish and black terminal tab board.
    This speaker is mis-placed date stamp, so a '69 one.
    Contrary to what was mentioned above, in my experience I'd say 20% of the old greenbacks I've bought didn't have caps on.

    Like to see more pics of the cab OP, looks in great condition. Odd how none of the speakers have the white codes on?
     
  9. fitz288

    fitz288 Well-Known Yinzer Gold Supporting Member

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    OP date code is DDMY
    Capturegb-s.JPG
    Please explain why this in not '92.
    upload_2021-12-8_7-39-59.png
     
  10. metromutt

    metromutt Well-Known Member

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    Simple, human error. I'm guessing it would of been a basic rotary rubber stamper, someone new maybe got things mixed with numbers/letters, no biggie back then... although I think the back to front code ones have a better tone LOL
     
  11. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Well-Known Member

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    I have found the transition period from date code stamps on 68-70 to be all over the map, and a lot of it is human error. Check to make sure you have 102 003 cones, the date codes are "close" (yours are), the speakers are good and if that all matches up, buy the frigging cab.

    You'll overthink this into someone else buying it before you can...just my .02...and I'm certainly not the "expert".
     
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  12. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    FYI - black tabs are an easy way to spot 60's GBs.
     
  13. Matthews Guitars

    Matthews Guitars Well-Known Member

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    If you follow my "stream of consciousness in progress" in my previous post, and use the Bygone Tones pages (Dating Celestions, and identifying Greenbacks) at the same time, you'll see how I lay out everything with evidence to back it up.

    The speaker with date code V22KB was made on October 22, 1969. V is inspection stamp. 22, the day, K, the month. B, the year. And it's in impressively good shape. The green plastic magnet cover has clearly never seen the light of day in 50 years.

    It's known that the order of the stamp characters sometimes changed. Once you understand this, the date code is easily deciphered anyway.
     
  14. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    You guys are such great detectives! :D I totally missed the smooth vs hammered finish reference and black tab color, although I'm not sure that the tab color shows up on Bygone Tones website, but I've not yet read every article there. I should buckle down on my studies! I also missed the part about codes sometimes (maybe even "often") being out of order for the given date range.
    Great Thought Processes!
    Gene
     
  15. Matthews Guitars

    Matthews Guitars Well-Known Member

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    Even ignoring the smooth vs. hammered finish information, every other data point says 1969. The finish type just helps confirm that it's not a newer remarked frame with an old magnet cover on it.

    Now about the cones...are there any ink stamped markings on the cones? If so, what are they?

    Cone markings : Check this page:

    https://www.bygonetones.com/vintage-celestion-guitar-speaker-cones.html

    If they're Waldom cones, just send the speaker to Scumback for a recone with an authentic new production Celestion T1221 cone kit and be done with it. Because the Waldom cones sound AWFUL. The GB reissue cones are very close to the originals.
     
  16. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    I have a Feb '69 coded Greenback, with a Waldom cone. I can confirm how "AWFUL" it sounds! And while I've yet to have any SCUMBACK work in my possession, all reports indicate that Jim does fabulous work! And he is a very friendly and helpful gentleman to speak to!

    And also, please consider my sincerest apologies for any allusion to someone having pulled a scam, along the way. In this day and age, it's often a little difficult to remember that not everyone is a crook! I blame our leaders, for the examples they set!

    Just Chimin' In,
    Gene
     
  17. Matthews Guitars

    Matthews Guitars Well-Known Member

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    Several months ago I bought four Greenbacks (one from 1969, three from 1971) for 50 dollars each, all Waldom reconed.

    I stuck them in my "spare" 1960A and tried them. Wow. Really bad. I took them out, packed them up, and shipped them off to Scumback and had all four reconed.

    Jim did fantastic work on all of them. They got broken in before shipping them to me and they sound actually very close to my one original Pulsonic coned '73 Greenback. Not exactly the same but they are FINE sounding speakers. I am not going to quibble over the difference in tone, as I'm just not that much of a speaker sniffer. I know I like the sound of the reissues as much as I like the sound of originals, and these four are somewhere in between the two.

    I would definitely recommend you have Jim at Scumback recone your poor Greenback stuck with that awful Waldom cone.

    Five Stars to Scumback! The customer service and work done could not have been better.
     
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  18. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    Well Sir! That's the plan when I, A> can afford it and most importantly, B> When I get off my lazy old a$$ to do it! Right now, I consider it simply a large and cumbersome paper weight! :rolleyes:
    Thanx 4 Playin'
    Gene
     
  19. BygoneTones

    BygoneTones Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's 22nd Oct 69 with the stamp format in reverse. Likely original to the cab if it's a 1960 model.

    Best not to use the stamp format for dating Celestion speakers in my opinion. There are quite a few of them out there with the "wrong" stamp format. The date stamp location tends to be more consistent, and is a better way to date them in my opinion.
    • Location: It's on the frame leg, so that's most likely April 68 to early 2001
    • Decipher the two letters (and ignore the rest of the code): LB = Nov 69 or Nov 92.
    after that you just need to go by the visual clues, and general appearance of it. I've got example date code photos at the bottom of my date codes page for comparison. eg a 1992 date code is usually all in one line with the T number included and an inspection number at the end, like this:
    [​IMG]

    Heres a 93 greenback, with the 6402 cone, spade connectors etc. Quite different in appearance to an old pre-rola from 69. Date code and T-number all printed in one line.
    [​IMG]

    Another tip - if you see the added inspection letter, 'V' in this case, they only did that for a short period from about 1969 to 1975. At least on the 12" greenback models. So that's another way to date them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021
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  20. proxy

    proxy Well-Known Member

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    It is Greenback.
    It farts.
     

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