Greenback vs Creamback In DSL20CR

Discussion in 'Cabinets & Speakers' started by Gene Ballzz, Nov 28, 2021.

  1. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    While the Pre-Rola 25 watt/75hz Green back is a near perfect match for most of my other amps (open back combo or closed back 4x12/1660B) It has always given me an issue in my DSL20CR. To get it to bright enough, without being harsh, I've needed to turn the TREBLE to zero or near zero and run the PRESENCE between 5 and 7, but then it lacked something in the top end. The SEVENTY 80 that came in the amp had exhibited a similar problem and I just assumed it the nature of the amp.

    Other folks (probably using that same stock SEVENTY 80) said they experienced the same anomaly, needing to do a similar dance.

    Well I had a nearly new Creamback-65 in my JTM30 that I don't use often and decided to give it a try after comparing the response graphs of all three mentioned speakers. TELL YOU WHAT! The TREBLE is now happy at between 3 & 4, with the PRESENCE around 2 or less. All that was lacking is now there and what was not wanted is gone! :D The beef and tightness of the bottom end is still a bit lacking, similar to the Greenback and SEVENTY 80 (when playing by myself), but once the bass & drums get going, there is no clutter or tonal conflict!

    Happy Speaker Camper! :fever:
    Gene
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  2. Matthews Guitars

    Matthews Guitars Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree, a Creamback is the answer when you love the tone of Greenbacks but want a brighter treble response. The two are my two favorite Celestions. I like to mix them in a 4x12 cabinet, two of each in an X pattern. That makes my favorite 4x12.
     
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  3. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the Creamback is a litle brighter but smoother in the top end, allowing the amp to be "opened up" a bit more by missing that Greenback spike at between about 3K & 5K. That spike works out well with other amps and especialy in closed back cabs, but not quite as pleasant with the DSL20 and an open back! That same Greenback really shines in my Tweed 5E3 Deluxe! :D
    Just Speakerin'
    Gene
     
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  4. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    And oh yeah, I'm amazed at how differently I'm now able to use/run the amp. While the graphs and reports from others show fairly similar responses and similarities between the two speakers, the differences in the small peaks and valleys of response really do make a huge differenc!
    Just Respondin'
    Gene
     
  5. RJW

    RJW Member

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    The creamback is brighter? The CB sounded dark and muddy in my friends Supro so I went with the GReenback in a recent cab project. I was quite satisfied. I play mostly fender amps though.

    Are CBs better suited for Marshall amps? I am designing a 212 cab now and my DSL20HR will be here later this week. I wasn’t even gonna consider the CB til I started reading this discussion
     
  6. Gene Ballzz

    Gene Ballzz Well-Known Member

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    Well it goes like this. The Creamback is definitely not brighter per se, but allows you to run the amp with more TREBLE without being piercing. Thus allowed it to be used more "brightly" overall.

    Note that both speakers are nearly identical until we get up to around 800hz. Then the Creamback has a considerably deeper dip at about 1.5khz. After that, the peak at 2.5khz (a frequency that can be harsh, but yet is needed to "cut" through) while a bit higher right a 2.5Khz on the Creamback, it is much narrower allowing for some cut, while subduing the harshness on either side of it. And then in the Greenback, there is that NASTY (for a DSL20) spike at about 3.3Khz (compared to the Creamback) and remains fairly high right on through to 5khz. That is a very harsh and piercing range and rather unpleasant to the ear when pushed too hard. They are again mostly similar from that 5khz all the way to 7khz and then the Creamback taes pretty big dip at 8Khz (another harsh/nasty). Of couse, there is that spike of the Creamback at 15Khz, but if you can still hear 15k after years of playing loud music, "Bless Your Heart!" although the audience often can hear up that high and that spike creates a little bit of "PRESENCE' if you will.

    T1221-G12M-Greenback-Notated.jpeg T5864-G12M-65-creamback-notated.jpeg



    Comparing these graphs and considering that the frequency range of the fundamental notes on a guitar tops out at a little above 1khz tells us that all that "top end" is harmonics and overtones of the fundamental notes. It also shows us why pushing the upper mids and treble at the amp gives unpleasant spikes in response at the speaker, if that speaker has peaks at the most unpleasant spots,as with the Greenback. It also demonstrates how the Creamback allows a slightly "smoother/less harsh" top end when turned up at the amp, even with that necessary spike at 2.5khz. So yes, the Creamback IS a little bit brighter and spikier in the top, top PRESENCE range, but much more subdued (slightly duller) in the TREBLE range that is most painful to the ears. Combine that with the fact that the DSL20 is VERY bright and pronounced in those painful ranges that the Creamback tames and you can get a better and brighter overall sound, with the amp opened up a bit more and not be vaporizing pets and small children while doing it! Matching the proper speaker with each different amp is a very important process, as each amp emphasizes different parts and/or spikes of the frequency spectrum.

    Bear in mind that frequency numbers are second nature to me, as I've been a sound engineer (sometimes with some VERY BIG names) all of my life. I can hear a feed back and know exactly what number slider corresponds to it on a graphic EQ. That's a story for another day!

    Well, There Ya Go!
    Gene
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
  7. pedecamp

    pedecamp Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking the same thing, I have a pair of 2x12's a creamback65 cab and greenback cab both wired at 8 ohms and the creamback cab is darker sounding. :scratch:

    Could possibly have something to do with the cab material.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  8. RJW

    RJW Member

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    Thanks. Good information. Exactly what I came to learn.

    May I conclude that the Cannabis Rex (asking bc I also purchased it at the same time as the Greenback) will also produce these harsh high frequencies with the DSL20 based on the pronounced spike, well above 100dB, around 2.5k to 5k? Or am I mistaken?
    7B83E763-92F3-4254-A821-0242FB0A2B0D.jpeg
     

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