Gain without Distortion

wegman · 10-24-2009, 11:49 AM

It seems to me that with gain comes distortion. What do you guys do to get gain but keep the signal clean?

Do you use combinations of tubes, pedals, amp settings etc?

I am interested to hear.

Thanks

American Viking · 10-24-2009, 04:23 PM

What exactly do you mean? In the older days gain meant volume and with more volume came distortion. Today gain is more closely associated with distortion, which I don't necessarily agree with. If you want more "gain" you must be more specific, are you looking for cleaner and more headroom? More distortion from the amp or pedal? Or just more volume?

Headroom can be achieved by having a higher wattage amplifier, also tubes with higher plate dissipation, like 6550's instead of EL34's for example. A slightly colder bias sometimes will give more punch and clarity without pushing the tubes into early breakup.

To get more clean boost on your guitar signal they make pedals such as the MXR Microamp which is a pure decibel boost pedal that should not color the tone in any way. The trade off, that within the volume boost it pushes your guitar amp harder resulting in more gain or distortion. A way around some of this it if you have too much unwanted distortion but like the pushed sound, switching out the phase inverter preamp tube for a 12AT7 instead of the typical 12AX7 will yield less gain. There are other positions you can try these in as well. I keep some in my collection to get different sounds every once in a while. The AT7 will not distort as fast as the AX7. In older amplifiers it is worth trying.

I guess that's all I can really say off the top of my head without knowing exactly what you are looking for. Hope this helps.

MajorNut1967 · 10-24-2009, 04:38 PM

The Viking is on the money. But you can also get clean gain from tubes. The EF86 is gain monster and clean. It's all on how you drive the tube and don't try to get major gain from just one section of the amp. A good example of tons of gain without distortion is Dumble Steel String Singer. Lots of sustain and mostly clean.

wegman · 10-24-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Viking

What exactly do you mean? In the older days gain meant volume and with more volume came distortion. Today gain is more closely associated with distortion, which I don't necessarily agree with. If you want more "gain" you must be more specific, are you looking for cleaner and more headroom? More distortion from the amp or pedal? Or just more volume?

Headroom can be achieved by having a higher wattage amplifier, also tubes with higher plate dissipation, like 6550's instead of EL34's for example. A slightly colder bias sometimes will give more punch and clarity without pushing the tubes into early breakup.

To get more clean boost on your guitar signal they make pedals such as the MXR Microamp which is a pure decibel boost pedal that should not color the tone in any way. The trade off, that within the volume boost it pushes your guitar amp harder resulting in more gain or distortion. A way around some of this it if you have too much unwanted distortion but like the pushed sound, switching out the phase inverter preamp tube for a 12AT7 instead of the typical 12AX7 will yield less gain. There are other positions you can try these in as well. I keep some in my collection to get different sounds every once in a while. The AT7 will not distort as fast as the AX7. In older amplifiers it is worth trying.

I guess that's all I can really say off the top of my head without knowing exactly what you are looking for. Hope this helps.

Attack is what I guess I am referring to.

Gain and distortion. It appears to me that the two are synonymous. I turn up the gain knob on my amp and I have distortion. I turn the gain up on my pedals I get distortion. It's seems to be a natural progression. So how does one achieve maximum gain or attack but keep the signal clear and clean. I am not referring to volume.

John Petruccis solo tone on the Train of Thought album is a good example of what I am referring to.

I was just wondering what other players do to get the gain they require but keep the distortion in check.

Tubes I think is definetly one way.

Thank you for your reply Viking. Some good info there

wegman · 10-24-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorNut1967

The Viking is on the money. But you can also get clean gain from tubes. The EF86 is gain monster and clean. It's all on how you drive the tube and don't try to get major gain from just one section of the amp. A good example of tons of gain without distortion is Dumble Steel String Singer. Lots of sustain and mostly clean.

That is what I was thinking. It's probably more in how you tube the amp then anything else.

Thanks major

Frankie · 10-26-2009, 02:49 PM

Compression. You probably want to stick some sort of compressor inline. You'll get all the attack and plunk you need without the added distortion. Just don't get too liberal with the output knob or you'll slam the front of your amp into distorting.

kcwm · 10-31-2009, 05:37 PM

I'm still new to effect boxes outside of a distortion pedal and the basic modulation, so forgive me if I'm off, but would a boost pedal not work in this situation? I have a Zvex Box of Rock that has a separate boost feature built into it (based off of the Zvex Super Hard On). I'm guessing that if you push too far, you get into territory that Frankie was referring to. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but couldn't that work too?

wegman · 10-31-2009, 09:54 PM

I am running a boost pedal a DOD FX 50 overdrive preamp. The problem is when I get the gain where I want I get distortion. I can't avoid it.

As stated earlier I believe how the amp is tubed is the key. Maybe I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

John

10-24-2009, 11:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
wegman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 138	Gain without Distortion It seems to me that with gain comes distortion. What do you guys do to get gain but keep the signal clean? Do you use combinations of tubes, pedals, amp settings etc? I am interested to hear. Thanks __________________ Ian St Ian says "If your not playing Gibson and Marshall your a wanker!" Marshall JCM 800 2210 (1989) Marshall MG CD10 (hi guys!) Gibson Les Paul Custom (1981) Mackie 24x8 mixing console Alesis ADAT HD 24 digital recorder Shure KSM 27

10-24-2009, 04:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
American Viking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: RICHMOND, VIRGINIA Posts: 1,510	Re: Gain without Distortion What exactly do you mean? In the older days gain meant volume and with more volume came distortion. Today gain is more closely associated with distortion, which I don't necessarily agree with. If you want more "gain" you must be more specific, are you looking for cleaner and more headroom? More distortion from the amp or pedal? Or just more volume? Headroom can be achieved by having a higher wattage amplifier, also tubes with higher plate dissipation, like 6550's instead of EL34's for example. A slightly colder bias sometimes will give more punch and clarity without pushing the tubes into early breakup. To get more clean boost on your guitar signal they make pedals such as the MXR Microamp which is a pure decibel boost pedal that should not color the tone in any way. The trade off, that within the volume boost it pushes your guitar amp harder resulting in more gain or distortion. A way around some of this it if you have too much unwanted distortion but like the pushed sound, switching out the phase inverter preamp tube for a 12AT7 instead of the typical 12AX7 will yield less gain. There are other positions you can try these in as well. I keep some in my collection to get different sounds every once in a while. The AT7 will not distort as fast as the AX7. In older amplifiers it is worth trying. I guess that's all I can really say off the top of my head without knowing exactly what you are looking for. Hope this helps. __________________ -I'd rather be a good liver than have one...

10-24-2009, 04:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
MajorNut1967 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Pacific Posts: 710	Re: Gain without Distortion The Viking is on the money. But you can also get clean gain from tubes. The EF86 is gain monster and clean. It's all on how you drive the tube and don't try to get major gain from just one section of the amp. A good example of tons of gain without distortion is Dumble Steel String Singer. Lots of sustain and mostly clean. __________________ MJN1967 aka BA (Bad Attitude) 1968 model 1987 50watt. A Baby Major (Half-Power) I built from the ground up. JTM 45 Clone combo Ground up build. JCM 800 Clone Ground up build. Custom Built Warmoth Strat 75' Fender Tele-Deluxe '70 style strat custom build w/Custom Shop 69's PU's

10-26-2009, 02:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Frankie Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 362	Re: Gain without Distortion Compression. You probably want to stick some sort of compressor inline. You'll get all the attack and plunk you need without the added distortion. Just don't get too liberal with the output knob or you'll slam the front of your amp into distorting. __________________ w w w . c o w b o y m a f i a . n e t Myspace.com \| YouTube \| Facebook

10-31-2009, 05:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
kcwm Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	Re: Gain without Distortion I'm still new to effect boxes outside of a distortion pedal and the basic modulation, so forgive me if I'm off, but would a boost pedal not work in this situation? I have a Zvex Box of Rock that has a separate boost feature built into it (based off of the Zvex Super Hard On). I'm guessing that if you push too far, you get into territory that Frankie was referring to. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but couldn't that work too?

10-31-2009, 09:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
wegman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 138	Re: Gain without Distortion I am running a boost pedal a DOD FX 50 overdrive preamp. The problem is when I get the gain where I want I get distortion. I can't avoid it. As stated earlier I believe how the amp is tubed is the key. Maybe I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. John __________________ Ian St Ian says "If your not playing Gibson and Marshall your a wanker!" Marshall JCM 800 2210 (1989) Marshall MG CD10 (hi guys!) Gibson Les Paul Custom (1981) Mackie 24x8 mixing console Alesis ADAT HD 24 digital recorder Shure KSM 27

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