DragonSarc

so which scales do most players use when doing solos or lick? I know pentatonics and bluesy pentatonics but on which scale (A G or E)?

stryker59

i tend to play in A and E more often but the great thing about scale patterns is that they are easy to transpose to different keys...

__________________

you've been weighed, measured, and found wanting!

Adwex

The key you solo in would depend on the key of the song. Alot of rock songs are in A or E, so those two are the usual favorites.

When I got into jamming along with backing tracks, it was a great lesson for soloing in other keys. Now I'm more familiar with C and D.

__________________
www.myspace.com/rockerlivemusic

poeman33

I'd say in order of frequency when jamming I use
E, A, G then B

__________________
---------------
Marshall JCM2000 DSL50
Avatar Vintage 4x12 cab
Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat Ash body

DragonSarc

so whats a good practice just to go up and down and left to right, i play more rythem than lead, i cant do a lick from my head most of my leads is from songs (metallica GNR zeplin from tabs) but would like to do my own

poeman33

In my humble opinion (like musicians are humble ... ) practice thinking up licks on your own, even if they are very simple at first. You need to get the creative part of your brain practiced. It's similar to learning chords. Eventually it will start to flow naturally enough into your own style if you give it enough time and effort. If you just do things from memory or from other people's songs, you won't ever develop your own style. I've played with so many people who sound fine but can jam worth a crap because they never learned to create. You may never sound like Slash or Jimmy, (and maybe you will) but you will sound like yourself.

__________________
---------------
Marshall JCM2000 DSL50
Avatar Vintage 4x12 cab
Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat Ash body

satchfan

A good starting point is to pick a key & learn the pentatonics in all 5 positions up & down the neck.

Steve.

__________________
Never sell your vintage Marshall Valve...... You'll regret it for the rest of your life

st.bede

+1 and then pratice them through the circle of fiths

(when the pentatonics are fully "grocked" the are very powerfull...can be used to play good alt. or exteneded tones...can also be used for playing out very successfully)

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

DragonSarc

sweet thanks for the advise rock on all!!!!!

mike sicowitz

Hi all, Here's something I don't beleive I heard. Yes it's true to practice in all different keys. I recently found myself doing a lot of song writing in C sharp. It works out nicely with an E to an A to a B back to C sharp. And like so many players I hear, don't get programed to majors. Learn eqally well how to do melodies using minors. When you finally have that moment that most have, you will be able to play by ear because you know your minors, and all the tricks that easily come when you combine the two into more and more complex melodies. But here is my most important concern when I'm trying to teach someone--don't forget your right hand. Pick out a note where your left hand is comfortable, and with your right hand just pick that note slow and steady, slowly going faster and faster, but stop when you start to get sloppy and slow down. Do this everyday for a half hour. You will find your leads far cleaner. I still do it and I have been at it since 1969. It may sound simple, but it is not easy to master playing clean, this warmup works. Good Luck, Michael Sicowitz

st.bede

so true....my playing has/had been domanated by that maj sound (approch) and also the rock blues thing....just because that is what I started with...

I would add one more important area...is to learn to play with a blues approch....which is simular to the min petatonic thing but, is based off of the arp of the I7 and alt tones....

so to sum it up

play out of three "bags"

1. major...including modes and coresponding petatonics...

2. minor...including melodic (jazz min) and harmonic minors

3. Blues...including both the rock approach and the more "tradational" approach

(of course you could include a bunch more "bags"....like, modal playing, many var. jazz ideas, exotic scales, ect)

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

DragonSarc

K gots it, wow I got to work on my scales only one i know is Blus pentatonics on A
I got a lot more practicing to do thanks

poeman33

It's interesting to look at everyones approach to learning licks. When I was learning I didn't think about major or pentatonic...(didn't know what that meant). I would just think of something and go up and down the neck, slow at first, and then repeat it until I could do it at speed. And use the same approach for a lead in a song. I learned the different types of scales by listening to different guitarists, but I didn't know what they were called (and still don't mostly). I didn't have video to look at like everyone has now, so I had no idea where on the neck most of them were doing this. When I see some of the videos of those guitarists now on Youtube, I play the same scale in a completely different place on the neck alot of times. I guess that's part of how I developed a sound of my own.

__________________
---------------
Marshall JCM2000 DSL50
Avatar Vintage 4x12 cab
Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat Ash body

mike sicowitz

I am with you poeman. Getting into what things were called came much later. Like you mIy early years were filled with trying Clapton and Hendrix licks and now I see on Utube guys doing things that sound right, and probably are, but there's more than one way to play a riff hitting the correct notes. Imagine learning to play upside down. I'm a leftly but found it too hard and went traditional. Your point is well taken, some of the very best guys I was ever lucky enough to play with could not read a note. Of course everyone knows the notes and keys, but you don't need a degree from some fancy fine arts college to kick some ass on your guitar. In fact I remember hearing guys say they went to this or that school and when it came time to jam they couldn't play worth a damn. We were playing bars till 2am while other guys learned in a classroom--I'll take the bar education myself. But there's a lot to be said for knowing the classical approach to learning. I wish now that I knew more than I do, just to be able to explain what it is that I do more easily, if that makes sense. I guess what ever it takes to get you to where you are happy and most of all--can play--do it and be thankfull you are one of the lucky ones who can play, have we not all heard guys with years of lessons who can't play. In summary, I agree, you don't need to know the language if you are gifted and willing to practice your butt off. Great forum, great members, Mike Sicowitz

kharvelan

I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I just bought The Guitar Grimoire, (costs like 25 bucks at guitar center). I don't think I will need another book ever again for scales. It explains the theory behind all modes and how they are built. It's an amazing book.

Here's a link to the website:

The Official Guitar Grimoire Website

amplifier

The Keys of A,G,E etc will give you the same sounds just higher or lower in pitch. If you want to get some different sounding stuff then use different modes like Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, or Locrian. Ionian (Major) and Aeolian (Minor) are used all the time. Also I don't like stereotyping modes like "oh that sounds Major" or "happy." I've thought of sad sounding music using Major and happy using Minor. They are all different and should be appriciated equally and individually.

amplifier

Yes but blues scales are just variations of the Major and Minor tonalities. I don't think it deserves a special #3. How you choose to voice it is another subject. And "modal playing" and exotic scales (within Western music) are just variations branched off of Major, Minor and the modes so those should be thrown up there along with Major and Minor for the most part. Jazz gets its flavor more from chord type than from various scales or modes. I get your point as I'm sure others do but for anyone learning this for the first time I can see your wording being a tad misguiding. Not trying to bash, I'm just looking out for the newer students.

st.bede

IMHO...no, no, no, no....sorry but I fully disagree...it all has to do with the tonal center or the harmonic overtones (that can be held in the minds eye if not being actulized in the chord [or whatever] that is being played)....it is a bag thing..so if you are thinking say modally the same notes take on a different meaning...

great example is when a rock player plays the typical blues song...they do not sound like a blues player because they are still thinking in RR terms..although the notes might be the same....one reason this happens is because the blues is not in one key...it is so different from "standrad" western music...of course it has become so integrated...

granted this is heavy stuff...

I can dig what you are saying but (IMHO) better to start out with a view of where one is going and like anything get into enjoying the process...NO ONE CAN TOTALLY MASTER MUSIC but, everyone can become better and try not to fall into habbits or cliches

BUT I DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE RIGHT...that is why it is so important to explane how context works....best way is through playing and having the student hear it for themselves...then I add "this is why X is so powerfull...let's work on getting this bit of X down first"...that way the student becomes open to exploration and developing their individaullity

of course there is a MILLION ways of doing this..and what works for one person might not work for another so, again I acknowldge your wisdom

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

st.bede

oh yeah when I said jazz ideas I was thing about certian approches that happen more often in a jazz setting...like playing a motif up whole steps (or 1/2 or 1 1/2 ect)

excotic scales to be played right have to be contexualized in a certain way.....

thus a different bag....ect

blues scales are the I7 arp with added tonalities...and move in and out of maj or min tonalites

maybe I am crazy.....maybe it is better to let go and just play...I do not know for sure...JIMI basically only played petatonics but had no problem being exccelent...(once again the petatonics are about the most powerfull set of notes that there are)

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

st.bede

I would agree you do not persay need to know the notes...but the people who are great players who do not read know how those notes function in their minds eye....even if they do not know the terminolgy

a great example is I used to make up chords and then I learned that all these chords were x or y...that allowed me to apllay them in different ways

I would think that it is easy to become stiffled by an music education....a way of overcoming this is to know

1: that theory is always developed after the fact (Wagner still can not be codified)

2: what ever comes from your inner ear (minds eye, or the music in your mind) is ussally better then say thinking something up using theory...at least this has been my experence


the "language" is learned (internalized) through playing and hearing but understanding theory can allow a person to move in different directions and when they hear something they can see how x is being used in a way they did not think about...

AS ALWAYS JUST MY TWO CENTS...I have the upmost repect for all musicians (or even hobbist) regardless...I just love music and if you play a little or a lot you have my admeration and I can learn something from any one...beginer or pro...PEACE

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

mike sicowitz

Hi again everyone,
Well it sure sounds to me like we hit a nerve on this topic. This forum is great so we can exchange something important to us all without any name-calling. Hell, we all love our guitars, and music in general so much that we have a need to share our thoughts and personal insights. We would not have those important insights if we all arrived at where we are as musicians the same way. I was playing bars when just a kid and so my memories and teaching approach is sure to be different from someone else. I truely like the idea of the mind's eye, or whatever you want to call it. That's something that we must all share as musicians. You know, it's that idea you have about how to play a riff when you are driving in your car. You can see how to do it in you head and can't wait to get home and try it to make sure. One other point about riffs and such, probably the last point as we have really covered this one--when I listen to Axis Bold As Love, I always hear notes in my head that are not there. Does that make sense, I hope? It's like an important part to a classic piece of music is what's not there. The holes your mind's eye quickly fills up. How do you go about teaching that? I know there are many sayings like 'less is more' and crap like that, but I think it's talent, it is some kind of genius that the rest of us don't have. That's why we can only pretend to play like Hendrix. I could be wrong, I am a lot of the time, but my mind's eye always seems to be drawn toward rests and spacing, in order to set up some closing riff. The great ones all have it. I try not to play too much, but there's even more to it than that. I hope I am explaining this where most understand. Thanks everyone, great forum and well-informed members. Mike Sicowitz

st.bede

what you are saying makes a lot of sense....I assume your musicality and individualality are adding notes because it is you....go with it...try to play axis with those extra notes....

that the whole point is to just to be yourself.....

I guess that the one thing that a teacher should do is encourge creativity and exploration....

I tell people to be fearless...I tell them that I make huge mistakes all the time...but, that is part of taking chances..

when I am playing during a lesson and I make a huge mistake I say out lound "what the F was that" so I can go back and point out that when you are taking risks thing will not always gel but, you keep on going...

I point out that even fully trained classical musicians have to improvise a little when they make a blunder...

many times what you do not play is more important that what you do play...it helps to create a story, to create tension...

I tell people to read potery and pay attention to the different puncations..sometimes we need commas (short pause) sometimes we need periods (longer pause)....(and dashes , question marks, ect)

I know how hard it is to want to sound great and impress people but, for me that is not what music is about...I try hard not to let how other people see my music confine me...

the only penalty for making a mistake is...that other musicians will hear it and, the ones who feel fear will judge you...and the ones that are more confrontable with themselves, will remember when they made a mistake and be supportive...



we all have to work through our fears and support each other so we can get beyong the BS and play music (now I have gone crazy and I feel like I am writting a new age book)

as always this is only my linmited understanding and I hope to always learn more

__________________
Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence

"to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey

"Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone....(from KPFA Cover to Cover)

amplifier

You misunderstood me. I understand the difference between scales and modes. With personal opinions and semantics aside the math is there. From Major to Locrian the formula FROM Major to Dorian is one degree up all the way back to Locrian to Major when using the same notes. They are all "modal" in that sense, but that wasn't the point I was making. The difference between Rock and Blues IS voicing and technique. Even if you take Harmonic Minor which is just a branch off of Minor, it's variations also follow the one degree up formula... try it yourself you'll see. This is most likely where the formulas for the modes originated. You won't find that in any books, damn I'm good! Take Classical music... we're using the same modalities/tonalities and techniques as hundreds of years ago so why does music sound so different? Voicing and technique! Not to mention the addition of the electric guitar I appriciate your 2 cents but I still think you're overcomplicating things for those not informed. You almost lost me and I already know this stuff!! I think music is much more enjoyable when it's presented in a structured logical way that is easy to understand and digest which isn't how it's presented in traditional teachings. I learned 10 times as much on my own in 1 month than 1 year with my guitar teachers yacking. I think it had more to do with squeezing more payments out of me. Why pay a teacher when you understand it? Ironically your learning conflicts with their monetary interest. It's best to keep students confused I supposed. But who knows maybe some people enjoy the mystisicm of it all. Or maybe I'm just a little more left brained than some. I'm getting off topic... anyway even though Blues has roots in African music it was created and refined in the U.S. and Western music did influence the sound. I even saw a TV program about the history of Blues that made mention of it.

I agree everyone has to learn on their own. A painter won't make a work of art without first learning about brush strokes and how colors work and likewise a guitarist will never compose anything worth while without first learning about his instrument and musical concepts. Everyone has different learning techniques and learning curves. For some (like Hendrix) it comes more naturally but the knowledge is still there regardless.