Uk G12t-75 Vs China G12t-75... Not The Same Speaker!

Discussion in 'Cabinets & Speakers' started by 67Mopar, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. 67Mopar

    67Mopar Well-Known Member

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    My friend Mark came by this afternoon to check-out my Marshall SJ rig. In less than 5 minutes, he asked; "Is that cabinet loaded with G12-65's?" When I told him G12T-75's, he didn't believe me. I was going to snap some pics on the inside anyway, so I removed the back of the cabinet. He said; "I was expecting to see a quad of 65's... Those sound incredible!"

    I don't know what changes Celestion made when they moved production to China, but the China made G12T-75 and UK made G12T-75 are not the same speaker. The UK made G12T-75 and G12-65 are identical in every way, except for the coil former. Other than that, they are identical. As a matter of fact, the UK G12T-75 (IMO) sounds better than the the G12-65. After playing through my SJ cabinet, Mark shares my opinion. He hears a slightly tighter bass sound, and a slightly more "vocal" sounding midrange.

    A member of the JVM forum did a sound analysis of the UK G12T-75, UK G12-65 and the China made G12T-75 speakers. Here are the charts:

    UK G12-65 vs UK G12T-75 (black line = UK G12T-75)
    [​IMG]

    UK G12T-75 vs China G12T-75 (black line = UK G12T-75)
    [​IMG]

    If you dig the sound of a G12-65, you'll love the UK G12T-75 just as much, if not more. Whether it has the vented center or not, these are not the same "scooped" G12T-75 speaker that's coming out of the China factory.

    Here is a summation by the JVM forum member who tackled this issue:

    "After some digging to try and get to the bottom of this, this is what I've found. The G12-65, G12T-75 and G12M-25 speakers all share most of the same specs - same magnet, voice coil, etc. The G12-65 and G12T-75 also use the same 1777 cone. My G12M-25s have 6402 cones which, although made of a different pulp and treated differently than 1777s, were possibly stamped with the same tool. The main difference between the G12-65 and at least the early G12T-75 was the voice coil former (which has an impact on tone/behaviour). The G12-65 uses a fiberglass voice coil former, the G12T-75 uses a Kapton (plastic) former. That's what gives the G12T-75 its 10W higher power rating - fiberglass being a little more "vintagey" than Kapton, but Kapton handling high power and gain a little better.

    I don't know what happened with the move to China, but obviously something did, whether it was the cone supplier, stamping machine, glue or something else. At some point, Celestion started getting their cones from a Malaysian supplier, so that might have marked the change there. Also, after '86 the G12T-75 and G12M cones were stamped with the same tool, so that could have contributed to their similarity at the time. Obviously, when the G12T-75 was still manufactured in the UK, it probably shared most, if not all, of these things with the G12-65 that was being manufactured just a few years before. I'd hazard a guess that the only significant difference between the early G12T-75s and the G12-65 was the voice coil former, with the rest being essentially the same - though they might have made some other tweaks to get the G12T-75 to work better with the Kapton former.

    I don't know how much all that explains, but the main point to me is that the major difference between the G12-65 and early G12T-75 was likely the voice coil former which, assuming the Heritage G12-65 reissue is an accurate reproduction, didn't seem to have much of an effect considering the frequency responses of the two speakers are almost identical. Perhaps as my G12-65s break in more they'll change, but I can't see them getting any "middier" because then they'd be less like my G12Ms and more like a pre-Rola era Greenback... and I can't really see that happening."
    - Casey_Butt
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  2. wakjob

    wakjob Well-Known Member

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    Cool...I totally believe you. I'm a fan of the t75's.

    We had an older 1960A with t75's at the store for quite
    a while. There were many others too, but that one cab
    just had that "it" factor.

    My Bogner Uberkab, and a purple Vintage Modern were
    the only other 4x12's that even stood a chance against
    that one particular 1960A beast.

    I really wish I had snagged that cab.
    But I know who has it...it's in good hands.
     
  3. dptone5

    dptone5 Well-Known Member

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    Great analysis and read. Big fan of the UK 75's as well. I have a few of them and I like the tone.
     
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  4. BftGibson

    BftGibson Well-Known Member

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    why this is my main cab..the gt75's blend so well the the Vintage from 90's .. x pattern (2).jpg
     
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  5. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    I agree the 80's G12T75's were great speakers and close to the G12-65's, but when did their sound change...was it when production went to China or another time?

    Without comparing the same models for every year going back to 1984, I doubt we'll get that answer. Maybe the difference is just break in? As far as I remember,
    I think Celestion made the parts and had them assembled in China not completely manufactured and assembled in China. And I bet the quality control was over the moon
    the first few years...my real point is not make this an UK vs China thread but instead, a vintage vs new thread. FYI - Heritage reissue UK models sound different than
    vintage UK models, too. A vintage G12-65 UK model will sound different than a new G12-65 Heritage UK model.
     
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  6. chiliphil1

    chiliphil1 Well-Known Member

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    I've always been a fan of the 75's as well. My first Marshall cab was a 2007 B cab bought new, it sounded really good but, my favorite was my old 900 series A cabinet and it was awesome. Those were definitely UK speakers in that one. The 2007, I'm not sure. I don't know when they switched over.
     
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  7. 67Mopar

    67Mopar Well-Known Member

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    From what I recall, the original G12T-75 replaced the G12-65. Re-voicing the G12T-75 speakers makes sense. Had they not, Celestion would have two virtually identical sounding speakers. I'm thinking, the China made G12T-75's were designed for "modern" voiced Marshall amplifiers, and/or to give Marshall amplifiers a "modern" sound?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  8. santiall

    santiall Well-Known Member

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    the G12T75 belongs to the list of gear that people dismiss just because they read it in the internet and for whatever reason the GT75 got the reputation of being 'bad'.I think it is a quite good speaker and many pros, and not pros, don't want anything else. It has its applications and for some stuff is better than for other but you may say that for every speaker.
    The G12H75 Creamback is also quite an interesting one to check
     
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  9. Adieu

    Adieu Well-Known Member

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    The old style sticker Brits might be quite decent... but the chinese thing with the square on the label is a budget speaker being sold as a premium piece of gear
     
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  10. 67Mopar

    67Mopar Well-Known Member

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    My Marshall 1959RR cabinet had China made G12T-75's in it. I hated that cab!
     
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  11. johnfv

    johnfv Well-Known Member

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    The only ones I've had are British from the '80s (my 1936 cab which I bought new and still own). They don't sound bad but still harsh on the top end for me. There are many others I prefer, the 75s are currently sitting in boxes and I'm using WGS. YMMV...
    G12T-75 and WGS Invader 50 small.jpg
     
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  12. stringtree

    stringtree Well-Known Member

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    Didn't the G12 T75s back in the late 90s get the reputation as being the mid scooped speaker. It got associated prematurely to a style of music of the time, when it was cool to cut the mids in ones tone..

    Thats what I remember how other guitarist talked about this speaker...
     
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  13. Ufoscorpion

    Ufoscorpion Well-Known Member

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    Age , that's the main difference , the rest is all cork sniffing bo||+<ks .
     
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  14. johnfv

    johnfv Well-Known Member

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    I've never tried the Chinese made ones so won't speculate, I'm *very* familiar with the British ones :)
     
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  15. 67Mopar

    67Mopar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, those are the China made 75's. No way those are the same speaker as the original. I didn't need the graphs to prove anything, but it's cool that Casey took the time to do them.
     
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  16. pleximaster

    pleximaster Well-Known Member

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    The G12T-75 have been produced over a long time and as with all production, small alterations come into play over time, material supplier differs etc. You might not notice the differences at first but several factors added together can influence thing quite a bit. I guess and I know I have seen some tests with similar sound analysis as above of UK made G12T-75 look different from different time periods. Then you also have variations between individual speakers and also batches...

    Well broken in G12T-75 are really good speakers. When brand new they can be a bit harsh in some frequencies with certain amps.

    plexi
     
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  17. stringtree

    stringtree Well-Known Member

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    I agree on all counts. Thank you Casey! :dude:
     
  18. 67Mopar

    67Mopar Well-Known Member

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    It has nothing to do with cork sniffing. The UK 75 and China 75 are different speakers - period. The UK G12T-75 / G12-65 are basically high power versions of the Heritage G12M Greenback.

    Here's the graph: Black = UK G12T-75 / Red = Heritage G12M

    [​IMG]
     
  19. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I would ever call the G12T75's or G12-65's high powered G12M versions, they do not sound alike. I believe that was Celestions goal, but
    those speakers are not alike. That graph shows differences and are not identical. Close but no cigar.
     
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  20. Gunner64

    Gunner64 Well-Known Member

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    I have old well broken in uk75s from 87. and late 90s uk 75s that are well broken in as well. The old 87s sound smoother and less harsh than the 90s version to my ears, but every time I play them the uk90s 75s seem to become less harsh. I also have 2013 chinese 75s that are getting better with age and use as well, and are sounding pretty damn close to the 90s version. While materials and other variables may have a bit to do with the differences I believe straight up aging and break in is the biggest factor.

    I respect the graphs and the effort, but unless one has an brand new nos 80s 75 and a brand new chinese 75 to compare break in time is not accounted for. We all know most if not all new speakers have a break in period. Compare an old broken in 80s uk75 against a never used nos 80s uk75 and see if there's any difference..
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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