The Recording thread

Discussion in 'The Tone Zone' started by blues_n_cues, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not saying that the different sounds are no good, in isolation & that they magically become the brilliant sound when you add the bass/drums...

    What I'm saying is that, the mix is part of the recipe. There's sometimes, just as much to what you do w/ it after recording, than, the captured sound it's self. Obviously, you need a good sound to start w/...

    Knowing what your final mix will be & how to get it are all part of the plot. Some people like to record guitar one way & mix it another, while some like to record it another & mix it accordingly. Sometimes the end result can be the same, but, it's knowing how to get that final print.

    All the guys mentioned were recorded on tape. They used older Marshalls & speakers. When you think of Maiden & Priest, they would typically run G12-75 speakers, which have the internets :blah::blah::blah: at how much they suck. They were the standard sound of early metal. Randy used the Altec, which are more generic sounding, like using 12" JBL PA speakers...

    The amp's inherently had more of that upper mid, you are looking for.

    I keep telling people on here, that, I once saw a show, where there were a dozen guitarist playing one, right after another & a couple slots had 2 guitars.

    Most guitars were some sort of JCM800, there were a couple JMP era & a couple DSLs. The DSLs got buried all night. They sounded tiny next to their predecessors. I'm talking 100 watt amp's...
     
  2. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    That is a very interesting observation. I have also harbored a theory for a while that there would have to be some concession in tone in exchange for the much lower price on the DSL. The fact that the DSLs come from Vietnam should be a first clue. It is further possible that Marshall is purely in the business of selling tone, and that the price tag reflects the "quantity of purchased tone" above all else, just like when we purchase music, we are not really paying for the medium (CD, mp3, etc.), but rather for the intellectual property. I am now intrigued to put the theory to the test. I have a local store that carries the new SC20 combo and head. If your experience is based on a consistent rule, then the SC20, being Made in England and costing three times as the DSL counterpart, should have none of the hereto perceived compromises of the DSL line. I am going to record the SC20 with the exact same equipment I used to record my DSL15C, and post the tracks for you to judge soon, probably before the Christmas holidays. I am curious about the results.

    Until then, here's some food for thought for you to digest over the coming days.




    To my ears, the SC20 sounds a bit thicker, but both the DSL20CR and the SC20 sound super weird, kind of like a kazoo. I don't think it's a huge difference.

    And finally, Johan Segeborn coaxes some pretty good distorted tones from the DSL20CR, but note also his aggressive EQ settings and cranked channel volume.

     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  3. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    Johan is using 2 mic's. 1 into the speaker cone & one by the camera.

    It's night & day between the 1960 cab & the internal...
     
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  4. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...I'm not so sure. I think the internal speaker sounds beefier, but that is due to the EQ settings, since on the 1960 his Presence and Treble are maxed out, providing a silkier tone, whereas with the internal speaker, he's got Presence and Treble turned down appreciably.

    Also, Johan himself did a shootout between different cab sizes as per the video below.

    Many commenters, including myself, thought the difference wasn't that huge. Bigger wasn't much better. Yes, there was some difference, but not something that the average person would notice. And, in fact, many people found the 1x12 best sounding. This is not to say that bigger isn't better, at the margin, but that the difference isn't big, and that small cabinet size alone probably doesn't account for poor recorded tone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  5. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I love the tone this guy is getting with his humble JVM-1 1-Watt head at the beginning of the video. Great midrange. That's what I consider great close-miked rock tone.
     
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  6. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I've finally figured it out! I used the following settings on my DSL15C Ultra Gain channel.
    Bass 2
    Middle 6
    Treble 4
    Presence 2
    Gain 5
    Volume 3 (higher values are better for a thicker, less fizzy tone, but work with what you can do, if you have neighbors)

    Mic placed just on-axis, pointed just outside the dust cap, about 6 inches off the grille. With these settings and mic placement, I get a pretty good midrange and not too much bass, which makes it easier to mix the tracks.

    With the above settings and mic placement, I got a very nice, basic classic metal tone, reminiscent of Maiden's Piece of Mind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020 at 3:19 PM
  7. BftGibson

    BftGibson Well-Known Member

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    after diving into recording big time & not going to studio anymore...i now play to the MIX....the song is a sum total of all parts..cradle the singer in that mix...but in isolation some tracks sound horrible..you take em in & out of mix cause of isolation & double think something is wrong..it just works..i have heard iso of some supposed hero's..they sound like crap but in the mix awesome..its about the song end result in recording..you do a lot of stuff way dif than accustomed to...yes you got to capture right always..that's you the musician doing your best..that's a given when record is hit..

    now adays live..is it live ..is there a click track...

    i would rather hear a great tune..lil loose but emotional vs 0010101010 perfection...we can all tear everything apart...and lose the ability to even enjoy music.
     
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  8. Michael Roe

    Michael Roe Well-Known Member

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    I 100000% agree with all of that comment!
    Yes, when mixing, there are some things you can not change, like a vocalist. You have to work around that. Make everything sound good with the parts you can not change first.
    I heard a tribute band this past summer that was using a click track. It was horrible!
     
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  9. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys! I just wanted to let you know that I've arrived at the end of this first phase of my recording journey—learning how to capture a good guitar tone by close-miking my amp with an SM57. After more than three years of learning and practice, I have finally mastered capturing my amp's tone as it sounds in the room, including the all-important midrange. Although I will continue to maintain a presence on this forum, I want to take this opportunity and thank you all for your help and patience during this process, as you were witness to my many setbacks as well as many small successes that, over time, added up to what I now know.

    Having conquered this challenge, I now look forward to spending more time playing and practicing guitar and maybe finally writing some new material. Having figured out a few days ago how to dial in my amp right, not only for recording purposes but also for general playing and practice, my amp now sounds better than it ever has, and playing guitar has been more fun than ever these past few days, now that my tone finally sounds professional.
     
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  10. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    What Do I Need ?
    Hope I'm posting in the right thread.
    These days I am recording into a Tascam 8 track recorder.
    I go direct from my pedal board into the Tascam straight using the pedals from my board as needed. Recently used for the first time a pre amp in a box pedal.
    I do not want to get into micing my DSL40H and cab(s).
    What I do want to do is use my board and my DSL40 direct into the Tascam.
    I guess I'd have to have a Cab sim somewhere along the line.
    What do I need and how do I do that? ( in the easiest and cost friendly way)
    BP
     
  11. Michael Roe

    Michael Roe Well-Known Member

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    You would be much better off recording into a computer. The options are much wider and cheaper as well.
    The best way without micing is to use a load box instead of your speaker/mic and then send that line level signal into your computer via an audio interface. From there load up an IR player/Loader and some IRs( Impulse responses).
    The cab sim pedals are ok but to achieve a much better sound the Interface/DAW route is far superior.
    With an interface/DAW setup you can use multiple IRs instead of just one. Most of your favorite songs have been recorded with multiple mics and using IRs is a very cheap way to mimic it.
    Get an interface and a DAW and then contact me and I can get you an IR player/loader for free as well as some IRs. www.zombiecabs.com , my website for IRs :)
     
  12. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    8 track recorder?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    Dod..lol in the old days had one of those called a Dokoder .
    No I;m using this :
    [​IMG]
     
  14. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    Wow..that is a great offer Michael. Thank you.
    Presently I am locked into this Tascam direct process. Using a PC means there is a huge learning curve for whatever DAW software program.
    And then there's the drum machines et al.
    Really don't know if I have the time/patience/intelligence to crack those codes man.
    Is there a way to get my DSL hooked up to my Tascam.
    Only way that I can think of is by using the FX Loop in some way? :shrug:
    BP
     
  15. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    I was just looking at this earlier...

    https://offerup.com/item/detail/811223941/

    [​IMG]

    $200...

    I'm not really in the market for something like this myself, but, it did catch my eye...

    There are quite a few devices. Torpedo, Palmer, H&K Redbox, Radial etc...

    I typically have never had issues using Marshall's simulated outs. I have a Redbox 5. I hear very little difference between the JVM1 out & the H&K. When using my ISO box, w/ my Sennheiser MK4 mic's, I didn't hear a lot of difference either.

    I was running a stereo sound w/ the mic's in the ISO box, recording 2 cab's (1912), 1 w/ V30 & 1 w/ H30. Then running the sim out on the amp, then using stereo effects on that.

    Seriously, the best bet is to run the sim out dry, then add effects after the recording. Adding reverb to the sim out will help make it sound more natural. Using reverb (or any effects) before the emulation, filters the brilliance tone off of the reverb. You want those frequencies in the reverb, etc...
     
  16. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that DOD. So in fact instead of the amp going to speaker cab it gets connected to a load box ( or whatever) and then from that device it can hook up to the Tascam.
    Good stuff !
    BP
     
  17. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    yes. If you want to go silent (no speaker) you need to have a load on the amp. Some simulator devices do not add a load, so you have to run them w/ a load or speaker (which won't be silent).

    I think you an use the (DSL) emulated out & use the amp in standby, to do silent recording. Worth a try...
     
  18. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again DOD. Unfortunately the DSL40 does not have an emulated out.
    BP
     
  19. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    The H&K Redbox, which @Dogs of Doom mentioned above, is a good starter tool that's cheap, simple to use, and sounds semi-decent. Being that it is, presumably, an emulation of an H&K cab, it has a slightly different sound than the typical Marshall emulated out (the H&K has a more scooped midrange).
     
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  20. BanditPanda

    BanditPanda Well-Known Member

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    Thank you #7. Will research that Red Box.
    BP
     

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