The Recording thread

Discussion in 'The Tone Zone' started by blues_n_cues, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    try this...

    mic close & distant.

    put the close on the left & then put the distant to the right (hard panning both)

    Download this M/S decoder:

    https://www.zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/h6-handy-recorder/downloads

    look for this:

    upload_2019-11-17_12-23-40.png

    whichever one matches your computer. running the stereo track, in your DAW, open the plug-in, in the effects rack. Now, change the blend of the L/R (M/S) & see what kind of results you get...
     
  2. BftGibson

    BftGibson Well-Known Member

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    been mic'ing mxl dt2 close & 1 3' away condenser) Blue Spark & MXL 990 for bigger open Rythym

    close MXL dt2(dual capsule-blend able) & mxl993 on 45 both on grill for that close mic tight capture

    soon as got this figured out..captured my sound better than the studio..able to record at home now..saving a lot $$$$

    have used expensive mic's..prefer these

    now have 5 preamps..that is where the real dif came

    JoeMeek 6Q
    GAP 73 mkiii
    JoeMeek Vc3 V2
    VTB-(tube)
    DBX286s

    they each have a dif flavor...soon as i got the pramps...the recording was so much easier..made this lil rack...they come out as good as the super vintage studios i have recorded at.Still learning to record..vocals have been a challenge..got the guitars down pretty good[/ATTACH] Furman4 opt.jpg Furman opt.jpg
     
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  3. Michael Roe

    Michael Roe Well-Known Member

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    I'm really worried about what @Seventh Son is going to do once he nails that Maiden tone. Add in that 2nd guitar, Bass and drums and then it all changes.
    If you try and mold the rest of the band around a guitar tone, Good luck!
    Always best to start with drums and bass then add vocals then guitar. It is easier to sculp a guitar tone around what you got then to make the guitar #1.

    @BftGibson , I went down that road before with preamps. It can be very expensive. I agree, it does make a big difference. I decided after doing some A/bing that it was much cheaper and easier using mic pre VSTs to add that color. Like, Slate or Plugin Alliance vsts. Another really cheap one which I found recently is the RM-2 by Audio Assault. The EQ on that one is very nice as well.
    I have found that one of the best investments for recording is to get the Waves API EQs (550 series). Not only are they exceptional on guitar but are phenomenal on drums.
     
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  4. BftGibson

    BftGibson Well-Known Member

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    yeah..got it done on the cheap..my main thing is..all originals..i just ask the mic & pre to capture what is coming out speakers. have learned to depend on the certain pre's & mic's for each part of song. The main thing i have learned(man i have wasted years ..lol)..get it right at capture...track it right..& leave headroom. basically have it layered right from the door...it is so much easier.

    your so right about the plugins...have T racks & am in love with 1176 & Dyna Mu
     
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  5. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I understand the concern, but I'm not trying to nail the exact tone. Just something in the ballpark. My problem all along was the midrange. I had too much bass and a ridiculous amount of fizzy top end from close-miking the speaker. If you listened to my most recently posted tracks, you'll know what I mean. The tracks are extremely eye opening.

    Anyway, I listened to a bunch of Maiden stuff today in the car and then switched over to my recording with just a distant mic at about 6, ear height (just like in one of the previous tracks I posted), and it was a seamless transition. My recording sounded just as natural as Maiden's stuff, particularly the Killers album. Now I just have to learn how to refine the formula. I'd like to try a close mic and a distant mic next. Even if that doesn't work out, I'm happy with just an SM57 put up in the room. It's way more natural and thicker sounding than anything I ever got from close-miking. Which again begs the question: How the f**k did the recording profession got so hung up on close-miking, when the results on guitar are so predictably awful, time and time again?

    Case in point, read this quote from an article on Guitar.com.
    "For many engineers, a simple one-mic technique gives them all the recorded electric guitar sound they need. Dynamic types, such as the ubiquitous Shure SM57, are ideal for capturing loud sounds, as they can handle high SPLs."

    Another example: This excerpt from recordingmag.com.
    "Miking up an amp would seem to be the most straightforward thing of all—so many engineers, if asked what they usually do, say “Just stick a Shure SM57 an inch in front of the speaker and you’re done!” In fact, this is exactly what you see in most clubs/on most stages, and even a lot of the time in the studio as well. To be fair, it does work just fine a lot of the time. But if you’re looking for a more nuanced guitar sound, or just want the absolute best tone you can get for each specific track, then miking options get a lot more interesting than just the “old reliable” 57."
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  6. AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing

    AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing Well-Known Member

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    Probably depends on what youre after specifically. You often need that close mic for “cut” in a denser mix where only having a more distant mic would get you lost/buried.
     
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  7. WellBurnTheSky

    WellBurnTheSky Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're looking at it the wrong way: because it doesn't work for YOU, in ONE SITUATION, trying to achieve ONE PARTICULAR TONE, doesn't mean it plain sucks. Just that it doesn't work for you in that particular situation, trying to achieve one particular tone (in isolation, at that).
    While, as all the others also pointed out, in many cases, close-miking with a 57 is a great starting point, definitely one you can work with at least. Because it provides you with what you need to cut through a dense mix: presence, and a big focus on mids.
    Again, in many cases, how a source sounds in isolation is close to irrelevant, compared to how it sits in the mix.
    And again, I'd advise you to check out some multitracks for famous songs, you'd be very surprised at how some revered guitar parts sound in isolation.
    Check out the isolated guitar tracks for some Queen or Van Halen tunes for instance: guitar doesn't sound as full or smooth as you'd think it does (the isolated guitar tracks for Queen's Killer Queen are a fine example of this, I also was surprised at how fizzy EVH's tracks sound in isolation on VH1). But in the mix ? Good God does it kick major ass.

    Amusingly, what you're saying about the 57 works pretty much exactly the same for classic Marshall tones. Does a 2203 in isolation sound as smooth, saturated and ear-pleasing as modern derivatives ? Hell no. But in a mix, it cuts like a laser and often sounds big, bold, authoritative...in a word, killer. Again, context.
     
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  8. AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing

    AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing Well-Known Member

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    I found you can high shelf down a lot of the fizz pretty aggressively without it affecting the tone.
     
  9. BftGibson

    BftGibson Well-Known Member

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    something i been doing. Where in the room does it sound great? I put a condenser there. For that full-tight capture on the grill a dynamic. It gives me the choice at mix time. Throughout the song i will use many dif blends of the mics. The ears really are the judge. Mic placement is key & then the pre amp. I noticed a huge jump in control with the dif pre's. The Neve style are fantastic with a pre & post ability to dial in hotter into post or clean into post. Learning to record lately almost has all my pedals not used now that i heard that tone coming out the amp. The clearer the better even on leads. I noticed the more you do to a signal ..in a way it deteriorates & sometimes maybe never capture it again. Sure has made playing fun again. Great guitar into great amp..just choose which one for the music being done.Let the technique be the star of the show not the gear
     
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  10. WellBurnTheSky

    WellBurnTheSky Well-Known Member

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    Fizz isn't an issue once you're in the mix, it actually contributes to cutting through the mix.

    Exhibit A:



    By itself, there's little to no low end, and it's pretty fizzy (even though verb tends to smooth it out a bit).
    In the mix, it's the sound of a 21 year old guy reinventing electric guitar.
     
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  11. AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing

    AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing Well-Known Member

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    My experience has been that thats true to some degree but at a certain point it becomes high end mud and can compete with cymbals/hi hats.
     
  12. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the Van Halen track you posted above sounds fizzier than your typical classic metal guitar tone. I'd classify Van Halen's tone as '80s hair metal, more American than British sounding, and the amount of fizz is just enough for artistic purposes, but it's not the case where everything is just pure fizz. Another similar example is Slash's tone with Guns'n'Roses. It's more of a rock tone, with a dialed back midrange, but the midrange is still there, helping the guitars poke through, whether in isolation or in the mix. However, compared to the tracks I posted on the previous page with a close-miked Marshall, SM57, all knobs at noon, Van Halen's "fizz" is a far cry from the fizzy garbage I get when I put an SM57 anywhere on the speaker.

    If that is what a close-miked guitar speaker sounds, then I am just at a loss how people get decent sounding tracks with that approach. I can't claim to have a ton of experience, but I remember that whenever I tried recording guitar amps close-miked with SM57s, it always sounded thin like that. I had a band back in the '90s. Between my band mate and me, we had a range of expensive guitars, we both played expensive Marshall half-stacks, and still, whenever it was time to record, nothing worked, until we just gave up and placed an SM58 in the upper corner of the room and just recorded the whole band with one mic. My current experience of revisiting this topic over the past three years mirrors my early frustrations with close-miking.

    Here's another example, since you mentioned Queen.

    I find the majority of what I hear in this track very midrange-y. Nothing earth shattering about the track, but it sounds just like I expect a distorted rock guitar to sound.

    Now compare that to my close-miked raw track on the previous page and you'll see why I am questioning close-miking as a viable method.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  13. AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing

    AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing Well-Known Member

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    Im right there with you. Ive never recorded great tones that way (if its the only source, that is). Id like to know their secret.
     
  14. DBI5

    DBI5 Well-Known Member

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    Smokey! You made me jump (sneaking up on an old Coyote like that). :D

    Good to see you're still sharing your recording studio knowledge and experience with other members of the forum. :hug:

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. DBI5

    DBI5 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    The little DSL combos would be the last thing I would choose to record Iron Maiden riffs.
     
  16. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Could you elaborate on this? I am using the DSL15C with an MX112 extension cab, both with Vintage 30 speakers, and miking the extension cab when I'm close-miking.

    I have also tried bigger amps, more specifically, my 6100LM with a stock 1960A cab. Same results. Nothing to write home about.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  17. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I found this interesting bit on Max Norman and the recording sessions from the Blizzard album.

    GW: What was Randy’s guitar rig for the sessions, and how did you record it?

    NORMAN: His amp setup was a Marshall stack, with two 4x12 cabs. We had four Shure SM57s right over the voice coils on four of the speakers—two speakers on the top and two on the bottom, catty cornered. The center of the microphone was right on the voice coil edge, on a tangent, facing right at it. Then we had a [Neumann] U82 sitting about eight feet in front of the stack, at the top of the steps and another U87 about 20 feet further back from that. Most of the time all those mics would be mixed down to one track. But sometimes we’d print stereo tracks if we wanted to keep the ambience separate.


    I wonder how many of those four SM57s he actually ended up using. It sounds like he used all of them.

    For the full article, go to https://www.guitarworld.com/features/randy-rhoads-blizzard-king.
     
  18. Dogs of Doom

    Dogs of Doom Moderator Staff Member

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    that is a unique setup...

    Randy used Altec speakers. Max said he was using a variac, & he had a full stack (stacked), in a stone room, facing into a stairwell...
    ____________

    NORMAN Randy’s amps were set up in a stone room underneath the control room; they were facing into the stone steps that led down to the stone room.

    GW Did he use basically the same guitar rig for both Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman?

    NORMAN Yes, and it was a pretty advanced rig for the time, I suppose. He’d read somewhere about using the Variac [a variable power supply that can lower supply voltages and cause power tubes to saturate at lower levels]. He had a 100-watt Marshall amp, and we dropped the voltage down to 90 or 92 volts. That smokes up the distortion, gives it a creamier edge. And of course a lot of the effects came from his pedal board, the “chip pan.” [Ozzy gave this name to the setup because it created so much hiss and noise that it sounded like French fries—which the British call “chips” – sizzling in a pan. ]
    ______

    all things to be considered. Think of putting a full stack in a castle. Aiming the stack into the stairwell, makes for a different acoustic environment. You could almost think of blasting a stack into a bathroom, or small hallway, but, now, add the stairs & a high ceiling. Hard to imagine, the distance mic at the top of the stairs, & another in the room, some 12ft away, upstairs. Who knows the size of the room upstairs? What treatment on any of the rooms, stairs, etc.?

    When he says "right on the voice coil edge, on a tangent, facing right at it" sounds like he is saying he is angling the mic straight into the coil, from the dustcap edge. W/ Celestion speakers, that would be nothing but fizz...
     
  19. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Good points. I tried mixing a distant mic (6 feet, ear height) with a close mic (cap edge) and it worked really well. Room dimensions and building materials aside—which do make a difference, so, I'm not disagreeing with you—what I got out of the interview with Max Norman, is that it is not that unusual to use distant and room mics, despite the fact that almost most people these days rely exclusively on close-miking.

    I recall reading somewhere, long time ago, that close-miking was a distinctly American thing at one point. This sounds plausible, since a more scooped tone is generally associated with sounding more American. So it would make sense that British engineers would employ techniques that emphasize the midrange, and American engineers would employ techniques that emphasize bass and top end.

    I still can't believe that Max used four SM57s on the stack, which, if they all ended up being combined on the final track, along with the room mics, would be pretty amazing.
     
  20. AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing

    AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. I guess I dont think of the close mic sound as scooped...i think you get overwhelming mids and treble
     

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