Replacement for Vintage 30?

Discussion in 'Cabinets & Speakers' started by Belial, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Belial

    Belial Member

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    So, after 90+ hours of loud music through the V30, it doesn't sound much different with the DSL20. I was noticing as the days went by that the iPod music was starting to sound warmer and not as spikey. Which made me hopeful for the final test of hooking up the Marshall. I have a feeling it may be the amp, though.

    Someone in this thread mentioned that they too have to watch the treble and presence knobs. I also just got through watching an Anderton's sound like video where they used the new DSL20. They commented that the gain channel was too fizzy and that they were disappointed because in the early days of "Sound like" videos, they'd use the DSL to stay within budget and loved the old version.

    Think it may be time to swap out heads instead of swapping out speakers. I've played V30's my whole life and never had a problem (Bogner 2x12, Mesa 2x12 and Marshall 4x12). So, common denominator would seem to be V30 is good...amp is not (at least not my cup of tea).

    Now, off to find replacement. :wallbash:
     
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  2. anitoli

    anitoli Well-Known Member

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    Crank some bass guitar through it.
     
  3. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    What's wrong with turning down treble and presence a little in order to get your sound with V30's?
    Apart from that, my experience, a few months ago, when I played some combos of the new DSL range, I remember not liking them. It was because (apart from being a little on the trebley side, which can be dialled out), their overdive and distortion was rather harsh. There are many modding suggestions on the web for the (older?) DSL range, maybe these can also be applied to the new DSLs. At least a good tech should be able to do so.
    Have you also tried some Marshall G12 Vintage (which is the father or root to all Vintage 30 but is in fact not exactly a Vintage 30)? I have one from 2013 in my 2x12 (the other speaker is a black frame V30 from 1989 made for Hughes&Kettner), and I have access to a 4x12 which is equipped with Celestion-labelled Vintage 30s.
    I compared them a few times; both speakers are not too old (apart from that old blackframe V30), but should be well broken in.
    The Marshall G12 Vintage is a little different in the higher and upper mid frequencies, the standard Celestion Vintage 30 in that 412 is a bit more aggressive. I actually like both when played with my Jubilee 50W clone.
     
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  4. spacerocker

    spacerocker Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that the Marshall G12 Vintage is the original Vintage 30 that was made in the 1980s. Over the years, celestion have made small changes to the design, which have a subtle effect on the way it sounds and feels. Also a lot of V30s are made in China these days, but the G12 Vintage supplied to Marshall is (apparently) true to the original design, still made in the UK....

    There is a lot of crap on the internet these days about how the Chinese V30s are "rubbish" and that the British made V30s (like the G12 Vintage) sound sooo much better! There are numerous you-tube videos showing how horrible the Chinese made speakers sound - usually featuring dodgy mike placement, or mobile phone camera mics......There are however a couple of really good comparisons which show the true difference....

    I have Chinese V30s in my 4 x 12 Cab, and have always been very pleased with them!

    However, I recently put a Marshall G12 Vintage and a Chinese made V30 in the same 2 x 12 Cab, with the ability to switch between them. The results were interesting! The main observation is that both speakers have the same character. The difference between them really is quite subtle! (I would say about 5% as a subjective figure) The G12 Vintage is slightly warmer a little "richer", and slightly less trebly! The Chinese V30 is brighter, more articulate, and more "open" sounding - but as I say these differences are subtle! My preference is the Chinese V30.

    I subjected my son (who is also an experienced guitarist) to a blind listening test - connecting the speakers one at a time without telling him which was which. He also marginally preferred the Chinese made speaker, although he said he "would be happy with either"


    The point of this being:

    1) Don't believe the hype that British made V30s sound considerably better than Chinese ones - they don't! The difference is subtle, and you may even prefer the tone of the Chinese speakers (as I do)

    2) All types of V30s give a sound which has the same character, and are just subtle variations on a theme, tonally!

    3) If you are not keen on the V30 sound, you would be better off with a different type of speaker, rather than messing about with different versions of the Vintage 30!
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  5. Michael Roe

    Michael Roe Well-Known Member

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    What are you setting your gain and volume knobs at? Also, what guitar and pickups are you using?
    Is this your first Marshall amp? What other amps do you have or have used that you like?
    I have seen lots of guys try out a DSL for the first time and describe the tone exactly like you do. The V30 is definitely a no, no, with a DSL, IMHO, unless you like the tone you are describing. Greenbacks and Creambacks work best, IMHO.
    The Ultra ch gain knob goes to 10 but sounds best at up to around 5. From there on, it does the fizz thing. Compensate for the lower gain by cranking the volume. This puts the amp more in "Marshall" territory. If you need more gain than about 5 then hit it with a boost pedal. Using high output pickups is going to get you in that fizz area quicker on the gain dial.
    Also, roll some tubes in that DSL!
     
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  6. Belial

    Belial Member

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    Been through too many amps and this ain't my first rodeo with a Marshall (used to own a '84 JCM 800 2205 w/vertical inputs).

    Too many to name, but I'll hit my favorites. A late 90's Marshall DSL 50W, Bogner Shiva EL34, Marshall '84 JCM 800 2205, Mesa Rect-o-verb and a Mesa Mark IV.

    Gain on the Ultra channel is set straight up at noon. Sometimes I'll push the front end with a TS9 set to drive 0, Tone 5 and volume 5.

    I have several guitars. PRS Custom 22 w/Dragon II pickups, Gibson '56 Les Paul Goldtop Reissue P90's, Kiesel DC600 with DiMarzio Illuminators, Fender Telecaster with DiMarzio low output pickups and a Gibson Les Paul Standard with DiMarzio EJ Custom vintage output pickups.
     
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  7. Michael Roe

    Michael Roe Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, you never know when talking with someone here how much experience they have unless they state. Didn't want to make you feel like I was belittling you. You obviously have some experience :) Again, my experience with the DSL 20HR, is use a Greeenback or Creamback. My fav is using a Creamback M65 loaded Bogner oversize 2x12. I also hit the front with an Exotic EP booster that thickens the tone up a bit.

    Here is a clip I did with the DSL 20HR and two IRs from my creamback loaded cabs.


    Also, if you go to my soundcloud page, you can find identical clips using different cab IRs and even different amps. The DSL 20HR is on many of these.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
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  8. Kinkless Tetrode

    Kinkless Tetrode Well-Known Member

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    Have you changed the bright cap? Or maybe you don't to get that invasive?

    One Marshall that loves V30s is the Jubilee.......
     
  9. Belial

    Belial Member

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    Nah. I don't go tinkering into amps. The only time I've ever had one messed with, was my '84 JCM 800. And that was just for a tune up and done by a professional amp tech.

    I'm one of those guys that buys an amp based on the way it sounds out of the box. If it ain't working for me, then I don't waste money. I just ship it back or sell it.

    The only other amp that I didn't get along with because it was too finicky (sounded awesome once dialed in, though) was my Mesa Mark IV. Every other amp that I've owned has been pretty much plug-n-play. I like amps that don't require a lot of fiddling with the knobs.
     
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  10. Belial

    Belial Member

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    *UPDATE*

    I swapped out the Chinese 16 ohm V30 for an 8 ohm Eminence Governor.

    Definitely noticed an improvement in the 2 to 4 kHz range. Way more manageable. I was actually able to turn up the treble a little bit. Noticed a pronounced midrange thing going on that the V30 didn't have. Like a beefy upper crunch. I would be guessing somewhere around 800 to 1 kHz. I had to back off the middle knob down one.

    Overall, I think it was the right choice for my DSL20HR.

    Now, I just gotta break it in with about 80 hours of iPod music and maybe that upper mid "thing" will relax a bit.
     
  11. Sacalait

    Sacalait Well-Known Member

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    I have two Orange PPC112 cabs. Both came with Vintage 30's. I replaced one with a Celestion G12-25 Greenback. I wound up recently burning the voice coil on the Greenie with my SV20H. I replaced it with a Celestion G12H-75 Creamback. I'm digging the tone of this speaker. Here's a short clip of some clean and dirty tones with both the V30 and the Creamback:

     
  12. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    The Jubilee likes the Marshall Vintage G12V, not the Celestion V30.

    The Governor has a bit more guitar low end so that aids.
     
  13. DLW

    DLW Active Member

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    I am not convinced either speaker has been pushed into broken in yet.

    Put the amp in the closet and turn the master volume to 8 or 9 and run the guitar cable under the door and just practice that way till its broken in. If you need more sound then open the door slightly. It will give you a reason to play more.

    Many speakers will sound good. Most anything not a V30 will take away what you dont like about the V30.

    The suggestions of the WGS and Celestions speakers all will work well.

    Play power chords and play in dropped D tuning. Abuse the speaker. It can handle it.

    SRV used to place a square of duct tape on the grill cloth on his amp right over the speaker cone area.

    Weber speakers makes a product doing this as it is a one inch think piece of plastic that is 12 inches long and in the center it has a 3 4 Or 5 inch round thing to disperse the sound and I believe take the shrill out of some speakers. It goes on before you put the speaker on.

    You could make your own out of velcro or velcro and cardboard or plastic and put it on the inside of the grill cloth.

    Could even test it on the outside with a piece of cardboard and tape just know it will work better on the inside as it will be closer to the speaker.

    People have also used a swipe around or two of acetone/fingernail polish remover around the outer cone area and around the dustcap to loosen up the dope/glue and the paper. There has to be you tube videos on this. Presents some risk and some resale value effect though. Its a common enough practice and I think even some speaker sellers offer this option.

    The EQ and presence adjustment go a long way also.

    Another option is a cheap 10 band EQ pedal in the loop like the cheap Caline brand one which is a copy of a MXR brand. Maybe able to pull back on the frequency that is harsh. Plus those pedals have all kinds of good uses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  14. Belial

    Belial Member

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    What would convince you?
     
  15. DLW

    DLW Active Member

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    Sorry I could be wrong here. I thought I read that it was pushed with an I pod using a 10 watt solid state amp. I went back and saw something about 10 more hours but not 10 watts so My bad. Sorry about that.

    If the pushing you did with the solid state amp was as loud as running your amp with tubes at your tube amp level of master volume of 8 or above then I would be convinced. To me running at a lot of hours and low to med volume will not do as much as less hours slammed by the tube power that really gets that cone moving to extremes. That way there is no wondering.

    I should have clarified that by saying that I am not convinced its broken in yet......I did not mean that it was done wrong, just not sure if it was pushed hard enough like a tube amp cranked would do. What I really meant is that there is hope and potential that the speakers have even more ability to break in and sound even better. Like the break in process may not be fully complete yet which is actually a good thing.

    Rock on!
     
  16. Belial

    Belial Member

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    I can confirm that it was done this way. Even using an iPod into the "MP3 In" input of a 10 watt solid state amp, it was extremely loud. So loud, that shut behind a door in my closet in my bathroom and then shutting the bathroom door and then shutting the bedroom door...I could still hear it sitting on my couch in the living room. :wow:
    I live in a brick house and I could hear it in the backyard, too. That speaker was MOVING and with that intensity for 10 hours straight, for 8 days in a row.
     
  17. DLW

    DLW Active Member

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    Sounds broken in for sure then! Many dont care for V30’s. I dont care for them usually. Well you got many options and the other speaker in there already to seems to be working better than the V30. Enjoy the amp!
     
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  18. Antmax

    Antmax Well-Known Member

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    I have a DSL 20HR and it too was quite bright.

    I had a Vintage30 which is a smoother less spikey V30 clone in my old DSL5c. My DSL20 was brighter than the old 5c and I didn't like the Vintage30 with it in my MX212a cab. The 2x12 came with two 70/80's I replaced the top one with the V30 and lived with that a while.

    I was looking for some speakers on the local craigslist and a pair of Mojotone BV25M greenback clones turned $40 for both of them. So I stuck those in. Sounded a little better, swapped some preamp tubes around and that helped a bit too.

    I found with the DSL20hr, I get the best tones out of my guitars with presence turned up and treble from 0 - 9 oclock. I use presence mostly instead of the treble knob.

    I just recently got a HX Effects which is very versatile and easier to get whatever sound I want. A lot happier with the amp since I got, much easier to adjust the tone to guitars with very different characters.

    Using more presence and less treble was the thing that made the biggest difference.
     
  19. JBA

    JBA Active Member

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    I've tried a bunch and the neo creamback is the way to go with this amp. Question do you back off the tone pot on your guitar or are you a 10..10..10..fellow? Dumb question for some and not so dumb for others. ;-) For example I run my lespaul between 5 and 10 depending on what channel / gain setting and playing alone or with a band. Most amps I've had don't require me to drop below 7 or 6. I constantly adjust my guitar(s)'s tone pot to maintain the proper balance in my tone.. It's simple and effective. Every guitar requires a different setting.
     
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  20. Antmax

    Antmax Well-Known Member

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    State the obvious, but yeah, easily overlooked and taken for granted.
     
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