Pulsonic Vs Kurt Mueller Cones

Discussion in 'Cabinets & Speakers' started by JohanSegeborn, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    Hi!

    Celestion G12M and G12H "Greenback" guitar speakers used Pulsonic cones from ~1965 to 1973 and Kurt Mueller cones from ~1975 to 1980.

    What is the difference between a Pulsonic Cone and a Kurt Mueller Cone, in terms of sound, paper micro structure, looks, stiffness?

    I have done a comparison and some observations in the clip below.

    Whats are your experiences?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DruV6YrXzpY&list=UUyaStghQb7_e51PgH8bUkzg


    Cheers!
    Johan
     
  2. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the comparison, they both sounded really good! I think the Pulsonic had a little more bottom end crunch in this video.
     
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  3. george76

    george76 New Member

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    Generally speaking the pulsonics are much nicer cones in my opinion (and most other people I know tell me the same). Just more fluid and smooth with a rounder tone if that makes sense - very suited to classic rock and blues. A nice quality to the tone even at low volume, but they really sing with some beef behind them.

    The Muellers are still nice cones dont get me wrong, but do not have the same magic or feel to them as the pulsonics. Better suited to heavy rock. Some models are nicer than others. Ive had some really nice sounding blackbacks in the past notably the T1886, T1511, and T1871 models.

    The problem with shootout videos of vintage speakers is that one speaker cannot represent all. Shootouts are great for new speakers, but with 40 plus yr old speakers there are always differences between them, even when they have the same cone type, and are the same model.

    Firstly Celestion were constantly evolving the the build specification through the years. Different manufacturing techniques, parts and glues etc.

    Secondly, and most importantly, the sound will change depending on the speakers history. The environment it has been kept in, and how heavily it has been used, the condition of the cone etc.

    Ive seen big differences between pulsonic speakers, some sound amazing - crisp with really nice tone, and some can sound dull and lifeless. All depends on how well they have aged.

    More on my website here:

    Celestion Cones - Bygone Tones
     
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  4. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    Well first off, let me extend a big thank you for your great web site, it is a great resource to us players! I agree about the T1511 its great. I don't fully agree that different instances of the same speaker would sound very different though (if it's not already dulled) I think I have about 10 different instances (from different batches) of the Pulsonic T1281 between 1970 and 1973, I think they sound very similar, evene over the two assembly sites. I'll do a comparison clip and post here.

    Again, thanks for your great work George!

    Cheers
    Johan


     
  5. george76

    george76 New Member

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    Hi, glad you like the site. Mainly it depends on the condition of the cones. Usually if they have gone very brown in colour it can be a sign they have aged a lot and gone soft - been damp or exposed to the elements eg If they have come from an open fronted cab with no grill.

    Also you will notice some cones are stiffer when moved by hand, and some move very freely. That is down to the condition of the doping, and how much they have been used or 'broken in'.

    Pulsonics in good condition are usually a nice grey/blue colour. These are usually the best sounding cones. Both of these are pulsonics showing two very different examples of cone condition:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    From 1970 to 1973 there were not many changes in construction. However if you find one from 67 you should hear some subtle sonic differences due to the different voice coil assembly (with 5 watts less power handling).

    re the factories: Celestion opened the Ipswich factory in 1968, and they stayed working at Thames Ditton until 1975. So for 7 years they worked from both sites. A speaker made in 73 could easily have been made in the same factory as one made in 1970. People place far too much importance on the labels.
     
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  6. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Another good video Johan.

    The cone itself is a major part of the speaker. If you change the cone type it changes the speaker. I am ranting about model numbers again, see both had T1281. The two cones, Pulsonic and Mueller, are different enough from what was shown in the video and given in the description. Therefore I believe the speaker model should have actually had a different model number.

    The Pulsonic has a recipe similar to a heavier weighted cone. Felt like is a good description, maybe having more wool content or something of that nature. I bet you can see and feel the difference in fiber content better in person.

    With that the heavier more structured cone will have more damping and more efficient lower frequency reproduction with some higher frequency roll off. The lighter more papered cone while maybe still retaining similar stiffness will roll off a bit of low frequency and less higher frequencies. A thinner less weighted cone will accenuate that effect. Amount of edge doping along with suspension and dust cap choice can help to reduce some differences.

    Anyway I believe all that can be heard in the video and speaks for a general average for a type of speaker in decent condition for comparison.

    This is good information for comparison sake. :yesway::D
     
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  7. Appetite4distortion

    Appetite4distortion Active Member

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    Me thinks Pulsonic wins :cool:
    Very good clip and capture the same differences I've heard when I tried A/B in my cabs. I always preferred pulsonics, more woody and less metallic with pleasant mids to my ear. And they have that cool "sag" which makes single notes singing when modulating.
    For heavy riffing, 444 has that extra bite, but with marshall amps I normally don't need it - plenty already!
     
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  8. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    They sure do.

    In this case the greenback is quite loose with a very low pitch when tapping it like a drum and the blackback is very stiff with a higher pitch when tapping it.

    I have never played any of those, do you have any sound clips where 20W versions are compared to 25W and old 25W to 30W? And do you know if Jimmy Page used the 25W T1281 or then 30W T1281?
     
  9. george76

    george76 New Member

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    I dont have any recording equipment here unfortunately, but maybe in the future I will do some clips for my site.

    Jimmy Page would have used the 30 watters in his basketweave cabs.

    The white coil greenback speakers were made roughly 1965 to late 1967 - pinstripe era marshall. Think early hendrix and cream when they were using the tall Marshall stacks. Hendrix at Monterey. They are not as warm as the later speakers and need a bit more power behind them to get to the sweet spot, but they have a nice clarity and definition to their tone. It is a subtle difference though, and probably more noticable on the G12M than the G12H. These are very likely to be white former T1281's:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LuQSVNJBBY"]Jimi Hendrix - Can You See Me, Monterey Pop Festival - YouTube[/ame]
     
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  10. Joshabr1

    Joshabr1 Well-Known Member

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    I like the pulsonics a lot. They are no doubt great speakers. But I have had some mueller coned cabs that were stellar. I really like the old 65s with them. Sweet round speakers. Right now my set up is a 70 top w pulso and 80 b w 65s. I really like how they sound w each other. John u do some great stuff that really makes the forum fun. Thanks
     
  11. pedecamp

    pedecamp Well-Known Member

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    I like the sound of the greenback best but the blackback is pure ACDC tone which I like too. They sound exceptionally good together.
     
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  12. pleximaster

    pleximaster Well-Known Member

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    Hej Johan!

    As usual your videos are great!

    When considering speakers the cabinet they are mounted in also play a role especially in the ambient room, perhaps not as much when mic-ed.

    I have to say that I nowadays believe that there are sonic difference between old marshall cabs and new ones mounted with the same speakers. Might be difference in the wood, playwood-glue, age or the vinyl/glue...?

    plexi
     
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  13. soundboy57

    soundboy57 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent video, thank you:yesway:

    You really captured the sound of both speaker types. Love all your videos, keep them coming!:shred:

    My favorite sounding speakers are, (sort of) in order:
    T1221 G12M Pulsonic 75hz cones
    T1511 Black back G12M with 55hz cones
    T1281 G12H Pulsonic 55 hz cone
    T1221 Reissue G12M 6402 cone
    T1281 G12H Blackback 55hz

    The blackback G12M with 55hz cones just sound killer. These are hardly broken in from 1978, and have a great glassy, growly tone to them. Sometimes I think they are more fun to play than the old greenbacks:hmm:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that!

    Cheers
    Johan

     
  15. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    Thanks! I can do a comparison between a 71 cab and a 87 cab if you'd like? Both have MDF backs though. I think the big difference come when you have solid cabs, lke for instance the Bassman 59 RI.

    Cheers
    Johan

     
  16. JohanSegeborn

    JohanSegeborn Active Member

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    Thanks! Well I love the T1511's too, both Pulsonic and Mueller. Can't believe that they are the least common ones.

    Cheers
    Johan

     
  17. vintmodJCM

    vintmodJCM Member

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    AAD857C5-1116-42BA-B01D-ED7989998161.jpeg 0112DB10-EE75-4EA6-AE9C-97DAC0E34520.jpeg E2447CC5-C663-4FBA-BA0F-5C8C1114CD7C.jpeg AA0E50E2-DD3E-47D6-9644-70B69CEFC5A9.jpeg George, Johann, George M. & Jim Seavall, and the incredible Ted Weber (RIP), I tip my hat to all of you for your seemingly endless dedication and intrepid research on all things vintage Marshall! I’ve learned so much from all of you and this knowledge has coalesced into the kind of extremely useful & helpful guidance which has helped me acquire this historical gem: an all original Feb. ‘69 basketweave with all metal handles & cups and with T1221 75hz G12M Pulsonics in great shape. And the moment that I was able to play on on it, I immediately recognized that fabled signature musical range of which these speakers are well known! This cabinet as a whole, has an undeniable character that I’ve not heard in any other cab. I can now hear for myself the magic that they produce and can say that it is real & not legend or hype.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  18. proxy

    proxy Active Member

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    Johan.....you rule....:applause:
     
  19. Kelia

    Kelia Active Member

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    Hi !!.........you seem to know a lot about those old speakers !.......I have a GBX 4x12 cab with T1234 Blackbacks but two of those have RIC cones and two of them have 1777 white stamp . But what I find strange is that the two with 1777 have the same colour and very big shadow around the dust cover where all the pictures I see of Blackbacks , they have the tiny shadow around the dust cover.

    Mine look the same as my 1973’s GH12’s 75hz Pulsonics and they sounds darker and very chewy just like them compared with the two RIC cones with the high sizzle!

    And also , they all date the same which is strange !........are those transition Pulsonics ?.........We’re they left overs ?

    This is one of the T1234 but they look darker in reality than the picture because of the flash !
    [​IMG]

    And this is a Pulsonic with the same big shadow around the dust cap
    l[​IMG]

    1976 Blacbacks
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  20. Kelia

    Kelia Active Member

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    And here’s the stamp and date code
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018

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