How close is a Jubilee to a JCM 800 2205/2210 ?

Discussion in 'Marshall Amps' started by Kelia, Feb 5, 2020.

  1. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Hi guys ,..........tonight I was playing with my 2205 with an SD-1 in front but with no gain
    on the pedal and realized that the sound I had was very close if not spot on with my 2555SL Jubilee even when the SD-1 was turned off , the texture was very similar but with different settings so my question is how close are they ?
    One thing I've noticed last week though is that the SL Jubilee can take any kind of rackmount units in the loop and it's very quiet ,.....but the Split Channel's loop is a little fussy on what you put in ,.for example , both work fine with a Lexicon MPX-1 ,... but a TC M300 unit will produce lot's of white noise in the Split Channel's loop while being dead silent withi the Jubilee .

    Any thoughts ?
     
  2. marshallmellowed

    marshallmellowed Well-Known Member

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    I could see it sounding "similar" to the 2555SL's "Rhythm Clip" mode, as they both use diode clipping circuits. The tone stacks are completely different, so I would think the 2555SL would sound a little darker. That's my guess, based on what I can remember. Aside from the Rhythm Clip mode, I wouldn't expect them to sound that close. I've had both, and the 2205 (if memory serves me correctly) was somewhat thinner sounding than the 2555SL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  3. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Thanks !............You're right about saying that the SL is a darker amp ,.....I was about to get a very sweet Slash style tone tonight with the 2205 without being a Slash guy .
    Long shot but would you know why some rackmounts work with the Jubilee and not with the 2205 ?
     
  4. marshallmellowed

    marshallmellowed Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the fact that the loops in the earlier Marshall's just weren't that good, no, I don't have an educated answer (circuit-wise). A guy could probably play around with some of the loop component values to get closer to what "he" wanted.
     
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  5. DragonCrestPC

    DragonCrestPC Member

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    I actually own a 2210 and a jubilee and find them different enough to own both. My 2210 i found to be smoother and "thicker" and very tricky to dial in. Jubilee is a sharper amp to my ears and much easier to dial in. I prefer my 2210 cranked though. Both incredible amps.
     
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  6. Jethro Rocker

    Jethro Rocker Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I thought The loop is in a different spot in the circuitry in the SJ as I understand it.? Where specifically I dont remember.
     
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  7. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Agreed ,.....both great amps !..........I've posted this video below the other day ,...I like my 2205 for thick lead tones , I went and bought a 1984 SD-1 because of this demo ,It tighten up the sound a bit and now I like both crunch and lead tones !
     
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  8. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    What I've read is that the early SJ's had a bad loop and it got better over time but a tech
    will certainly shed some light on this .
     
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  9. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Yeah ,.......I've noticed that the mid and treble pots are really interacting with each other but once it's dialed in correctly or to your taste ,...it's awesome!
     
  10. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    Hi Kelia and others,

    Both amps are very different circuit-wise. And from my memories (back in the late 90s when I had a 2210), I must agree with Dragon, that the 2210 is more finicky to dial in. Heck, the earlier ones with their lead channel EQ being in front of the gain stages, this must be even more tricky to dial in. And from all I remember and from all I hear from youtube vids, the 2210 series have a thicker, slower, sometimes buzzy or muddy attack as opposed to the Jubilee. Depends on the settings, of course, and in the end both are Marshalls :)

    On a side note: on a Jubilee, the lead mode has its own clipping diode circuit in the signal path, permanently. Actually most of the distortion and the distinctive lead sound of the Jubilee is "caused by" this diode clipping circuit.
    Switching on rhythm clip engages a second set of diodes to the clean channel, and this was intended to give the crunchy/mid-gainy 2203-style sound or mode to the clean channel only (why would they have called it "rhythm clip" then?). But the way it is done, it also affects the lead channel a little, which many happen to like (maybe so did the designer Steve Grindrod, and left it as is).

    As far as the loops are concerned: the later 2205/2210 series amps had their loop after the overall master volume. Any hiss or noise that comes from an FX device in the loop will be amplified many, many times by the phase inverter stage, which, among other things, amplifies the voltage to the high levels needed for the power amp stage. Actually the PI stage has a rather "high gain", in its pure, technical sense (not high gain in the common sense, which is often equalled with "amount of distortion").
    Plus, the level in the 2210 loop is dependant from the volume level that comes from the signal after the overall master volume. That means: When you crank that amp, there is a fairly high voltage level applied to the FX device, which some can work with, and some won't. When you play at whisper low level, the same device might work alright.
    This is why I don't understand, that even in many modern amps, the FX loop is placed after the overall master volume(s). There is no single reason I could imagine, why they still do it, apart from having to add another pot.

    In the Jubilee the FX loop is between the preamp stages and the EQ. Due to the Jubilee preamp's architecture, the signal levels present there, are already pretty low. Then right before the send jack, the signal is even more tamed down to work with guitar output level signals of stompboxes. I think, this helps to be able to use many more kinds of FX units.
    Plus there is a tube stage with local feedback before the send, that pulls the source impedance down a fair amount, which makes it less prone to impedance problems, than the loop in the 2210 series. These problems might be caused by long or bad cables, or low impedance inputs of studio rack FX units. BAsically, the lower the source impedance of a driving stage output, the less problems with the receiving stage, and the lower the input impedance of the receiving stage can be.

    The Lexicon MPX-1 has an input impedance of 50kOhms, whereas the M300 has only 13kOhms. This is by no means different worlds, but maybe one part of the equation, why that M300 does not sound good in the 2210 loop. You could try a neutral buffer right after the send to bring down the output impedance, but it should be one that can handle high signal levels.
     
  11. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    Nice comparison, and I very much hear th 2210 sound John Norum has, on Europe's last 2 or 3 albums.

    He must have been playing the Jubilee at a fairly high gain knob position, since it already gets a little muddy (this is where the bright cap on the gain pot does not have its bass cutting effect).
     
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  12. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Thank you HC for your detailed answer and video,........really appreciate !
     
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  13. El Gringo

    El Gringo Well-Known Member

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    Thank You for this very detailed analysis loaded with info !
     
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  14. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    You're very welcome, Sirs! :h5:
     
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  15. Kelia

    Kelia Well-Known Member

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    Love this place ,... feels like home !!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020

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