Dsl15c Solution To Fizz

Discussion in 'Marshall Amps' started by Seventh Son, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. Classicplayer

    Classicplayer Active Member

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    I guess you have been listening closely to those speakers over time and developed enough of a rapore to articulate what you hear. Its' a shame many companies don't put
    better quality speakers in their offerings. The speaker is the last link in the chain of sound before it hits your ears.
    Maybe that’s why I read in forums about so many amp
    owners getting rid of their amps for something “better”; never keeping anything long enough to get really familiar with what they have.

    Funny, I bought my cab to go with an Orange Micro Dark
    amp. I liked the cab so much, it influenced my decision to go with the Dark Terror.


    classicplayer
     
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  2. scozz

    scozz Well-Known Member

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    Nice...

    ...I purchased a DSL1HR a few months ago and after a couple of weeks I decided the gain channel had a little too much gain for my liking.

    There wasn’t very many light crunch tones on this channel so I decided to do what I had done to a Marshall combo and other amps I have.

    I changed out the V1 position 12AX7 preamp tube to a 5751. The 5751 has 70% of the gain of a 12AX7. This opened up the dynamic range of the channel.

    Now I have a whole array of crunch tones, (on the gain knob from from about 2 to about 4, 4-1/2), that were not there with the 12AX7. And there’s still plenty of distortion on tap.

    Another thing I’m happy about is this tube change does not affect the clean channel. That channel retains all the great tones that I really enjoy.
     
  3. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    You are right in that I know the amp very well. I've spent over three years playing it and recording with it extensively in every conceivable microphone position, so I've peered deep into its heard and know all its workings. There are many things I liked about it the way it came stock. As you can tell from the above recording, the stock speaker sounded dense and thick. The problem, however, was that it also sounded very synthetic under certain EQ settings. Hard to describe what "synthetic" means; to me, it always sounded rubbery, with no crunch on power chords.

    In the room, the amp sounded very nice, for the most part, but on recordings, the drawbacks of the stock speaker quickly became a headache. As can be heard in the above recording, the stock speaker sounds in the lower register like it is defective. Not a good thing. The low E power chord and chords its neighborhood sound really rough and garbled. It is so bad, in fact, that it really jumps out on recordings, but not in a good way.

    The Vintage 30 sounds way better in almost all respects, except that I miss the deep bottom end of the stock speaker (which can be added back in via the EQ), but other than that, it's all upside. Considering that the DSL15C is fitted with 6V6s, a scooped sounding tube, the Vintage 30 is a very nice fit both on paper and in real-world application, as it adds back the scooped mids. Overall, the Vintage 30 sounds so much more refined. It has a beautiful, complex crunch with a nice upper-mid fizz, but in a good, smooth way, and single notes, especially those in the upper register, sound very warm and very clean.
     
  4. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I was always happy with the gain on the DSL15C. All it takes is a bit of self-restraint and some delicate knob twisting, but I can see how some people might want to tame the Ultra Channel a bit. With the old speaker, I couldn't set gain above 5. I'll have to test it with the new speaker and see how much gain I can get away with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  5. Mitchell Pearrow

    Mitchell Pearrow Well-Known Member

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    SS I for one would like a second clip after the new speaker is broken in a bit, the clips you last provided I had mentioned that I liked what was originals in the amp, but again that was what my ears told me I liked :duel:
     
  6. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    That’s what I thought, too, at first, but if you listen closely, you should be able to discern the nasty and plastic sounding bottom end on the stock speaker. The Vintage 30 is cleaner, warmer, and sounds the way we expect a guitar to sound on CD.
     
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  7. Mitchell Pearrow

    Mitchell Pearrow Well-Known Member

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    So true, I do know what you mean, but my pick was what I thought I would hear if I was standing in the room with you!
     
  8. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    A few more impressions after the upgrade. The amp definitely sounds much thinner at low volumes than with the stock speaker. I even compared it with my more scooped DSL20CR on same settings, and it still sounded thinner, as it's all mids and treble, but with a surprising amount of warmth. It must be the speaker coloration that the Vintage 30 is known for that is adding the warmth. Interestingly, the DSL20CR with the Seventy 80 speaker sounded very boxy and boomy compared to the DSL15C with the Vintage 30. Not sure what to make of it. What I do know, however, is that that stock DSL15C definitely needed a speaker upgrade. At least mine did. Assuming that my original speaker was free of defects, then it is likely that all DSL15Cs have the nasty garbled lower mids and bass that can be heard in my recording above. I would definitely advise all DSL15C owners to upgrade the speaker. Celestion recommends the V-Type speaker as an equivalent but better upgrade. Ultimately, what speaker you put in it will also be a matter of taste, but there is no question that the G12E-60 has to go.
     
  9. JeffMcLeod

    JeffMcLeod Well-Known Member

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    lmao!

    People use all kinds of adjectives to try and describe how a speaker sounds, but this is a new one to me, lol.

    :lol:
     
  10. Classicplayer

    Classicplayer Active Member

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    SS, when comparing the two speakers; you are talking about broken-in speakers, are we not?

    My V30 took time to reach a more refined sound, and it was a gradual process. I’m still not sure if it didn't have
    something to do with amp circuit and tubes breaking in also.


    classicplayer
     
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  11. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the sound bite I provided above is that of a broken in G12E-60 and a new, out-of-the-box Vintage 30. Therefore, it is neither a perfect, nor fair comparison. From talking to experts, I have been informed that the Vintage 30 takes about six months until it is broken in. However, I have also listened to YouTube videos demoing the Vintage 30 and other speakers brand new, after one hour of continuous break-in, and after 24 hours of continuous break-in, and found the differences to not be big enough to render my comparison irrelevant.

    Out of the box, the Vintage 30’s only drawback in my combo is that it sounded a bit thin compared to the G12E-60 on the same settings and outside of that context, in and of itself. However, it is not something that could not be compensated for by adjusting the amp settings.

    Over time, the speaker’s cone will loosen up and develop a deeper bass (and I suppose lower mids, as well), which should be enough to optimize its sound. But other than the initial perceived thinness, everything else about the speaker is highly praiseworthy. The bass is very tight and defined, upper mids and treble are exquisitely crunchy, and the highs are pleasing to the ear.

    I was surprised how, despite its famous mid hump, the speaker still sounds pretty balanced. In a direct comparison with the stock speaker, there are many differences, but they are often subtle, and the amp’s tone and character are still discernible in the recording.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  12. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    Glad you enjoyed my description. It's how I would describe a power chord that has little to no crunch. It sounds rubbery to my ears. It's a problem common to the budget DSL line that gets fitted with budget speakers. The Seventy 80, for example, is a good example of that. If you compare it to a G12T-75, which sounds almost the same, you'll notice that the G12T-75 has a nice, complex crunch, whereas the Seventy 80 is much simpler, much more one dimensional. The previous-gen DSL line with the G12E-60 was even worse. The Seventy 80 is actually a pretty good speaker, whereas the G12E-60 is plain unacceptable.

    And since this is a DSL15C- and fizz-related thread, I want to use this opportunity to reiterate the importance of retubing your amp, even if it is just to eliminate all conceivable variables contributing to fizz. In my case, replacing the stock JJs in the preamp and TADs in the power amp with the same brand and type of tube went a long way toward minimizing fizz. I don't know exactly why that worked, but it did. Changing the speaker in the amp is definitely a must. The stock speaker does sound beefy, but it is also very fuzzy and muddy. This is not so obvious in the room, but try recording the amp, and you'll find the process very frustrating with the stock speaker.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
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  13. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    I tried the JJ ECC823 in the V1 slot and it made a huge improvement on the ultra channel. I could max the gain and it still had plenty of gain. Now, the range of the
    gain channel is great. I was thinking of modding my DSL15H but I think this tube will do exactly what is needed...taming the OD2. It thickened up that channel, too.
     
  14. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    This is a very common solution for those who find the Ultra Gain channel too...ultra. I found that after replacing the speaker with a Vintage 30, I am now able to use as much gain as I want, without it sounding weird.

    A big, but not obvious, reason for the fizz on the amp is the stock speaker. The G12E-60 is actually a very likable speaker, with lots of personality, but in recording, it not only sounds garbled, especially on higher gain settings, but it also generates much of the fizz that many have complained about with this amp.

    I found that to be the case even with my DSL20CR and the stock Seventy 80, an arguably very nice speaker. As soon as I put in a G12T-75, the fizz was gone, and I can now use Presence and Treble as serious tone shaping tools without introducing fizz on higher settings
     
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  15. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    I've tried mine through a vintage T1281 G12H30 and the V30MF, both sounded great!
     
  16. Larry Ayres

    Larry Ayres New Member

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  17. Larry Ayres

    Larry Ayres New Member

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    Hi there, I've just purchased a dsl15H, and have found the ultra gain channel had an ugly sound. I just replaced all of the tubes with JJ's except for the one in the metal can (I didn't order enough) so I put a NOS mallard that I had in that position. This cleaned up the horrible, cheap, diode sounding buzzing, on the ultra gain channel, but I find the gain pot is very touchy and has to be in the very low end to be tolerable. Also, it is very trebly. I am using a Weber Derek Trucks 12" speaker and it is sound wonderful on the clean channel and ok now on the ultra gain. Which tube is the V1 that you are referring to? Is that the one in the metal can? I've got some lower gain Mullard tubes (12AT7) that I am thinking of trying to give me more adjustment on the gain knob. These are a good value at TubeDepot, by the way. They have a UK military number. Thanks!
     
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  18. Heavy101

    Heavy101 Member

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    V1 is the tube under the metal can, if you use a lower gain tube in V1
    it will affect both channels.

    An option is a JJ ECC823, this tube will leave the clean channel alone
    and only lower the gain in ultra channel. This tube would go into the
    V1 position.

    Lots of threads here on the JJ ECC823
     
  19. Larry Ayres

    Larry Ayres New Member

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    OK. I thought I'd post a reply to my question above because it may help someone else. I found on this forum that V1 is the tube in the metal can and V4 is the one at the other end of the row of preamp tubes, that someone here also recommended changing. Here is what I did and the amp sounds wonderful now.

    I had a NOS Mullard 12AT7 from Tubedepot as a spare for another piece of gear ( British military CV4024 at a reasonable price) I put that in V1 and it was a huge improvement to both channels. But it was most pronounced on the ultra gain channel which went from being tolerable with the JJ's, to having a less harsh, and less distorted sound. 12AT7 is a much lower output 12AX7, but this amp has so much gain the difference is negligible overall. Then I experimented with V4 and replaced the JJ with a NOS mullard 12AX7 that I had pulled out of another piece of my gear a while back, and that was the ticket. Now the red channel has an warm melodic tone and I now have the gain up to 3, which I would have found intolerable with the JJ's due to the brightness and distortion. I A/B tested it a few times with the JJ just to make sure and there is no question that the mullard in V4 gives it a warm, typical marshall tone that you have heard on so many records. After all, that is what they used originally. You don't have to break the bank to do this. I found these mullard 12ax7 a while back on ebay branded as Nationals, made in england, and if you compare the plate and getter to a Mullard they were identical. Mullard made tubes for many manufacturers including national, dynaco and fisher. Mine was new and I think I paid $10.

    So now for a very reasonable price I have a great sounding amp with typical Marshall tone. It is amazing the difference in sound that can be achieved by just changing the tubes with no other mods.
     
  20. Javimart1212

    Javimart1212 Member

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    Just put in a choke. That will fix all your problems. Tightness on the lower registers and more focused clipping on distortion. It will add sensitivity. Just installed one on my dsl100h. Sounds killer and more robust.
     
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