DSL100HR tone drop in effects loop

Discussion in 'Marshall Amps' started by natelaff, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Hi everybody! New member here (and new Marshall owner!). For the last two decades I've owned a <hides> Crate Blue Voodoo 120H and decided it was time to upgrade to the tone I've been hunting most of my life.

    So, I got myself the DSL100HR, 412A cab and the 6-way footswitch from Sweetwater.

    Absolutely loving the tone, but I've run into something that I can't quite put my finger on. I've searched plenty, including this forum, but thought I'd get some advice on this specific situation.

    In my effects loop I have the Boss DM-2W (Waza Craft Analog Delay), and that's it. Literally the only thing in the loop. But, when I engage the loop I get an immediate tone and volume drop. Almost as if someone places a cardboard box directly over the cab. Disengage the loop, and we're back to normal.

    Here's what I've tried...

    1) Patch into send/return - No problem
    2) Plugged Waza TU-3W tuner into effects loop - No problem
    3) Replaced The DM-2W with another unit - Same result
    4) Plugged in a Tone City Tape Machine - Same result
    5) Plugged DM-2W into Blue Voodoo effects loop to test - No problem
    6) Plugged DM-2W into a Fender Princeton Chorus (not tube, but the only other amp I have) - No problem.
    7) Removed DM-2W from power supply and put in a new 9V - Same result
    8) Tried different cables, shorter cables, etc... - Same result

    As you can see I tried some pretty exhaustive troubleshooting. But it's neither seemingly the head (no drop when going straight from send -> return), nor does it appear to be the Boss itself?

    As you may be able to tell, I didn't try a buffer for a couple of reasons... the Boss already has a buffer, and being the only pedal in the loop should I really need it?

    I don't know where to go from here (Sweetwater is actually sending a new head, because they're stumped, too) but thought I'd reach out here and see if anyone else has noticed anything similar with this head, or has any other insight.

    Thanks! Happy to be in the Marshall family.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  2. scozz

    scozz Well-Known Member

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    Well :welcome: to the Marshall Forum,....

    ,.....I am not qualified to answer your questions. What I can tell you is that some Marshall amps effects loops do have some minor issues.
     
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  3. Jon C

    Jon C Well-Known Member

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    Welcome new MFer !! …… I have a DSL100HR…… No Issues with my EFX Loop …… Works as Advertised!!
     
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  4. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    First, I do not own neither one of the two devices.
    Since the levels of the loop in the DSL are not adjustable, you might try to lower the channel volumes first to as low as possible, and turn up the overall masters instead. Maybe this changes something. You might also try the two modes in the DM-2W, maybe one mode handles signal paths differently than the other.
    Problem is with these HR DSL's, that the FX signal path goes through the digital processing module (at least this is what the schematics imply...). It might even be possible, that the signal path is converted to digital and back to analog. Might be, that this causes some weird, unwanted interaction.
     
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  5. Kutt

    Kutt Well-Known Member

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    This is truly bizarre. For what it's worth, I have a 100HR and also use delays in the loop. I can tell you that I've used a BOSS DD-7 and DD-8, and also an Akai Analog Delay. I did not experience your issues with any of them (and I'm usually the one with shit luck posting problems like yours). The only commonality I'm seeing in what you posted is that the issue is only happening with delay units.

    I can't imagine this is related, but do you have any kind of footswitch connected to the amp and are you engaging it during testing? As you know the FX loop is footswitchable on this amp. If so, for shits n' giggles, try disconnecting the F/S and test again manually using the loop button on the front.
     
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  6. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Thank you for the replies and welcomes!

    In fairness to the delays, those were the only two mod pedals I have access to. The Boss is mine, and the Tone City belongs to my buddy. I would be interested to see if this happens with something else, but even with the effect disengaged it still does it so... I dunno.

    I do use the 6-way foot switch, and that is how I've been testing it, along with the button on the panel, but I've never done it with the FS disconnected. Will try.

    I did try both modes on the DM-2W, but good catch. I will also try cranking the master's then adjusting channel volume as suggested to see if that makes a difference.

    I'll know for sure if its the head tomorrow (Wednesday) when I get the replacement. Just thought I'd see if anyone was able to replicate this issue with the same gear, but @Kutt sounds pretty close to the setup and is not having the same problem.
     
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  7. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I have the same pedal. Bought it months ago and still haven't tried it out. :( If you can wait until tomorrow, I can check it and let you know if I am having the same problem with my DSL20CR.

    Until then, here's some more food for thought. I am currently using a Boss CE-2W. No problems. Also an MXR Carbon Copy delay. No issues with volume drops. Looking at the user manuals, the Boss DM-2W has the same impedance, etc., as the CE-2W, so in theory there should be no issues with volume drops with the DM-2W, but I will check to confirm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  8. Mitchell Pearrow

    Mitchell Pearrow Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum.
    I am no tech, so I am of very little help, but with the great members here I am sure you will get it straightened out!
    Cheers Mitch
     
  9. Sabbathu

    Sabbathu Active Member

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    I have the DSL40CR, which is the combo version of your amp, and I do experience a slight volume drop whenever I engage the effects loop. Almost unnoticeable if you're not paying attention, but it is there
     
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  10. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Ahhh turns out @headcrash was onto something. Cranking the masters to 9/10 then using the channel volume seems to eliminate the issue... but why..?

    we will see what the new one does tomorrow!
     
  11. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    Could be, that the DM-2w is a very faithful reproduction of that early 80s Delay, with all its drawbacks (less headroom in the buffer than modern Boss pedals...). And maybe the signal level though that digital chip is fairly high (although I can't believe that, since the DFX board is fed with 12V ...).
    I remember when using pedal level FX into line level loops often results in a somewhat choked or crammed sound, rather than ugly distortion.
    I would try to set the channel masters to as loud as possible, to the point where there's just no audible tone alteration using your loudest guitar/pickup and string hitting. Then leve the channel volumes there. For the the desired volume just use the overall masters. By doing so, you might have a bit more headroom left on the overall masters.
     
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  12. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Well the new head arrived and does the same thing. Kind of at a loss other than the suggestion of crank the masters and lower the volume with the channel.

    Here's what this sounds like if anyone is interested in hearing it. Turned on OD2 so it sounds not awesome through the iPhone, but this capture the effect.
    https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmhZE2smIgIur5FkvoEWCkvPDBCkkA

    <loop off> chug chug chug chug <loop on> chug chug chug chug <loop off> chug chug chug chug, etc...
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  13. headcrash

    headcrash Active Member

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    Ok, that sounds more like unregular drop outs to me, or something similar. Also I can't determine when loop is on, and when it is off.
    So I am not sure whether this is due to phone related artefacts, or the actual issue.
    Maybe you should use a clean sound to show the difference between loop on and off.
     
  14. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    @headcrash -- the loop starts as off four chugs, loop on, four chugs, loop off, etc...

    I ordered a Carbon Copy to see what happens with that one. It arrives today, should be interesting.
     
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  15. Seventh Son

    Seventh Son Well-Known Member

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    I just tried the DM-2W in my DSL20CR's loop. No volume drop.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  16. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Tried the MXR Carbon Copy. Same results. Completely mystified.
     
  17. Elliot Twist

    Elliot Twist Member

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    I am running a Line 6 POD HD500 on the loop of my DSL100HR.
    The Line 6 HD500 is only used for certain proper effects that belong on the loop of an amp.
    No Amp models are being used, as well as no compression, overdrive, distortion, or wah wah.
    I did experience some very minor tone change when the FX Loop is engaged.
    I could have been due to the Line 6 POD HD500, or simply the 20 foot loop cables used to insert the pedal board.
    I simply added an EQ in ALL the patches on the Line 6 POD HD500.
    I adjusted that EQ to compensate for the SLIGHT tone difference between FX Loop engaged and not engaged.
    Problem solved.
    I can post the actual frequencies of the EQ I used in the patches if that will help you.
     
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  18. ampmadscientist

    ampmadscientist Well-Known Member

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    Start the reactor... Free Mars!
    "Patch into send/return - No problem"

    Then the problem is not the amp actually.
    It's that the pedals do not match the amp.

    And this is a common problem using pedals on many Marshall amplifiers.
    And it has been a problem for a very long time many years.

    So you can either change the pedal to match the amp...
    or you can mod the amp to match the pedals.
     
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  19. natelaff

    natelaff New Member

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    Its silly that one of the top selling amplifier brands and two of the most common pedals would be "incompatible" but that definitely seems to be the case here. What's weird though us a guy at USMC said he plugged a Carbon Copy in and noticed a "slight" drop which was combated with the Bonafide Buffer.

    First, it's not slight, it's quite apparent. I then picked up the same buffer, and have no results. On top of that, my 6 way switch is now having issues turning the loop on/off.

    So now a Marshall guy tells me its fine with the CC in the loop with a buffer and now dealing with switching issues I don't know what to think.

    The iPhone isn't great a picking up how bad the tone drop really is, but it paints a picture.
    https://www.screencast.com/t/jENX6VCfing

    Just hoping to get someone to confirm "yeah, my 100HR does that too, even if the Carbon Copy is the only thing in the loop" or "no, that doesn't seem right".

    Thanks!
     
  20. Kutt

    Kutt Well-Known Member

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    I gigged with my 100HR last night and the 6 button F/S stopped working while I was setting up... or so I thought. Turns out the instrument cable I was using to connect it shit its pants. I'd suggest you try a new cable if you haven't already. You're probably also already doing this but make sure all connections are made before powering the amp up. I suspect there is digital switching going on inside the amp, and its finicky.
     
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