Breakup Decay Observation

Discussion in 'Marshall Amps' started by coyote, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. coyote

    coyote Member

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    Much as I’m liking my DSL40c, something has been bothering me. It’s not unique to this amp, or to this brand.

    It’s that compared to yesteryear, the drive generated in many of these modern amps seems, uhhh.... synthetic. And the signature is in the note decay. If you sustain a note/chord til it fades out, in the old amps that drive would gradually fade into clean and then fade to zero.

    Now? With the newer amps, the note/chord sorta “falls apart” into crackly fizz instead as it fades.

    That explanation is not perfect, but it kinda gets the idea across.
     
  2. Herbert Mitchell Pearrow

    Herbert Mitchell Pearrow Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh interesting observation I am going to have to give it a better listen, I am trying to get that harmonic feed back at the end of some of the songs, with out the squeal, between volume and gain, there is a sweet spot,:band:
     
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  3. tschrama

    tschrama Well-Known Member

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    I have that same observation... I really enjoy an amp that fades slowly to a clean note. its in the design.
     
  4. danfrank

    danfrank Well-Known Member

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    Probably because the newer amps have diode clipping?
     
  5. Micky

    Micky Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    It is a function of the power section, PI & finals...
     
  6. Jr Deluxe

    Jr Deluxe Active Member

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    Almost nobody let's a note fade into silence because you hear your system noise rise at the end.
     
  7. Trelwheen

    Trelwheen Well-Known Member

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    Do the new DSL series use diode clipping? I would guess not, since there are plenty of 12ax7s in there for several gain stages. However, I've noticed that the overall distorted tones are fizzy/buzzy compared to other high gain amps.
     
  8. KraftyBob

    KraftyBob Well-Known Member

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    I think I know what you’re talking about. When I let a note or chord ring out I hear a fuzz start to come in before it fades. Only on Crunch though. Clean and Ultra Gain don’t do this. I think I might have a recording of this. I’ll look for it later when I get home.
     
  9. tmingle

    tmingle Active Member

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    I started to notice the same thing a couple years ago. I now change strings with much greater frequency. It may be a Placebo effect, but works for me.
     
  10. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    What is in the signal chain?
     
  11. coyote

    coyote Member

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    Nothing. It happens regardless of whether I have effects running or not. It happens in music stores when I’m checking out instruments. When I was choosing this amp three years ago, I was comparing it to a Blackstar 40w combo... and the blackstar had the issue even worse.

    But I will re-validate this by unplugging everything, and running the guitar straight into the amp again.
     
  12. headcrash

    headcrash New Member

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    Being both a longtime modern amp user (Dual Reverb, DSL50, JCM800 SPlit Channel, Jubilee, ENGL Savage & Blackmore, Diezel VH4) AND a hobby DYI ampbuilder having built around 11 or 12 amps up to now I have to agree with the thread opener and I have discovered the same on some - not all - modern amps. As far as my obervations are concerned it has nothing to do with the signal chain - we're talkin guitar-cable-amp.
    I consider the ability to fade out gradually as an important sign of quality of the tone or sound of an amplifier, especially when doing clean or crunch sounds on medium or higain using the guitar volume.
    So far I have neither found the cause for that "crumbling" of decay, nor have I attempted to search for it seriously. I was lucky enough that most of my DYI amps decay rather smoothly.
    That being said; for the moment my Jubilee clone is my go-to amplifier and I really love it, although it doesn't decay smoothly. So in a band situation it does not seem as important to me :D
     
  13. tschrama

    tschrama Well-Known Member

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    It us a preamp thing.. once you get it, you also end up with an amp that cleans up spectaculairly with the guitar volume pot.. very cool.
     
  14. Herbert Mitchell Pearrow

    Herbert Mitchell Pearrow Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if it would be confused with decay, but the harmonic feed back that KK Downning gets in the live unleashed in the east, Judas Priest album is where I like to set. And the end of Glen Tiptons solo on beyond the realms of death, where he sustained his note to the point of feedback, I know I am a bit off topic:cool:
     
  15. KraftyBob

    KraftyBob Well-Known Member

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    This is the recording I was talking about. This was my first DSL and when I sent this to Sweetwater they swapped out the amp for another one. It's still present in the new amp but not nearly as noticeable. You can hear the fuzz come in right after I strike a note.

    This was guitar straight into amp and nothing in the loop. It was definitely coming from the speaker - nothing in the cab was vibrating. Also, as I mentioned above I only heard/hear this on the Crunch channel - clean and Ultra Gain are fine. Additionally, when I plug the same guitar and cable into my Vox AD120VT and try all different settings I cannot replicate it. So I know it's not the guitar or cable.

     
  16. Micky

    Micky Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Try different bias settings
     
  17. KraftyBob

    KraftyBob Well-Known Member

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    When I got my replacement amp it was biased at around 41-42. I lowered it to 38. A few weeks ago I replaced my power tubes and biased at 34. I still hear some buzzing as the notes decay. At least for my amp it doesn’t seem to be bias related.
     
  18. Nik Henville

    Nik Henville Active Member

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    And modellers, profilers, simulators and even effects all seek to emulate a technology that depends on glass bottles filled with wires in hot gas - without any clipping diodes or LEDs in feed-back loops or hard-wired to ground.
    Coincidence... I do NOT think so.
    .
     
  19. GIBSON67

    GIBSON67 Well-Known Member

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    New unbroken in speakers could lend to that artificial decay, just my thoughts.
     
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  20. jamesm

    jamesm Active Member

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    I have spent my life wondering why other people don't hear the fade out crackle (you have restored my faith in guitar playing humanity). I have found it to be caused by different mechanisms. It can be crossover distortion in the output stage, but is often due to circuit tuning or PCB design.
    It is very common on amps and pedals. I reckon you can tell this when you watch some Youtube demos when the player never lets the note fade naturally. I think they don't actually know they are doing it. The only problem is that once you have noticed, you can never un-notice, and there is a whole bunch of equipment out there that will never make you happy.
    From what I know of the DSL40, the problem is likely to be in the circuit tuning of the preamp. I suspect that the ultra gain does it too, but it is masked by the level of 'proper' overdrive.
     

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