'67 Marshall JTM Black Flag

Discussion in 'Let's Talk Vintage' started by Ace Major, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Ace Major

    Ace Major Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I found a 100 watt Black Flag for sale. Added master volume, replaced capacitors and tubes, other indicator light and re-covered in grey.

    All transformers and choke are original as stated by the seller.

    Price € 2500 which is about $ 2725

    The seller has a potential buyer, but if the amp is not sold next friday I have the chance to buy it. Unfortunately I haven't got more gut shots at the moment. Based on these current pictures, do you guys think the price is about right?

    Sure it’s one damn rare amp! So I don't think it's overpriced, is it?

    Thanks!


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  2. Appetite4distortion

    Appetite4distortion Active Member

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    Hello marshall friend! not good news...
    The OT is not original, despite what seller claims.
    Neither is the choke. Only the PT is. That's more than enough for me to think to the seller as non serious and not reliable.
    Whoever made that recover job, I really hope for him was his first time. Worst one I've seen ever.
    The whole board is a mess and needs serious cleanup.
    MVPPI was added plus minor changes as you wrote. All electrolytics replaced.

    Now the good: yes the model is rare. But in its current state, it is IMO too much of a compromised image of what a original black flag is.
    I would not pay 2500€ considering the above.
     
  3. mickeydg5

    mickeydg5 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    1967 100 watt What is weird is tha most examples do not have the "Black Flag".


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    Here is one.


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  4. neikeel

    neikeel Well-Known Member

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    Agree entirely with AFD.

    It is a total beater, a project. Only buy it if it sounds stupendous or you get kicks from a full resto'. It is the kind of thing that I would like to buy to restore, but price is wrong.

    New OT and choke = $200+ for correct replicas.
    Rebuild cap board with correct type caps and diodes
    Tidy up wiring replace caps and resistors with NOS
    Proper recover myself
    I would remove the PPIMV (I prefer a good attenuator on these) which leaves a hole in the back.
    That would leave a nice original spec amp though not sure how thevalue would sit then.
    It concerns me that the vendor is misinformed or lying about the iron.:mad:
    I have a slightly earlier one (JTM45/100 with EL34s etc) mone has a block end aluminium chassis with JTM front panel but is electronically the same:
    http://amparchives.com/album/Marsha...5 100W Superlead SN SLxxxxx - Neil/index.html
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  5. Appetite4distortion

    Appetite4distortion Active Member

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    There is not a unique 100W amp model in 67, but at least two different main "branches" based on circuit and trannies used. Earlier to mid 67 is one type, late 67 is another type.
    Panels and amps followed partially separate paths due to stock reasons, so same circuit could come with both logos and there can be partial overlapping. This cause confusion if you don't look at the amp inside.

    The "JTM" (Jim Terry Marshall) black flag logo is used probably for the first 7/8 months of 67, then JMP logo came (Jim Marshall Product).
    Anyway,what really indicates the circuit is the dual rectifier/8 caps array on the filtering board, not the panel logo.
    Most of amps with dual rectifiers have the JTM logo anyway (save a few with the very first JMP logos), while almost, if not all the amps with single rectifiers have already the JMP logo.

    Here's my mid/mid-late 67 PA100, not black flag logo, but black flag circuit. I have also a late 67 superlead JMP (with single rectifiers and Drake -132 OT) and it is a different amp. And, a very very late 67 SL100(or maybe first days of Jan 68) with same circuit, but Dagnall trannies (circuitwise is a 12xxx, despite the 10xxx S/N).
    All amps made in 67, all JMP, but circuitwise and soundwise are different.

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  6. jensvonbustenskjol

    jensvonbustenskjol Active Member

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    You'd might want to pay $3 to get it from the blue book. Then you can really throw it on the seller.
    The blue book has some really great documents for pricing music gear.

    I bought a Gibson Thor amp (from '64 if I don't remember wrong), total refurbishment project: $130 :) yeah yeah yeah, apples and oranges. The point is: €2500? NO!
     
  7. Ace Major

    Ace Major Member

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    Thanks for the input so far!

    I spoke to the guy on the phone a couple of minutes ago. The amp is not sold today, so the biddings will be open again. He told me something about the history of this specific model. He owns it for about 20 years now.

    He told me that the OT is serviced indeed. But the choke seems to have the right numbers on it. Myself, I don't have any knowledge about it AT ALL. I'm really into Marshall stuff, but all I know is model numbers, manufacturing years, stuff like that. Not the electronic part of any tube or solid state amp. Wish I was born an electrician. :p

    The adding of the master volume was done by himself ten years ago. He just wanted the amp to be useful on stage without rupturing your eardrums. Years and years later he started reading about it and then people said it's a shame that he drilled a hole in the back.

    Ofcourse, I know it's not a fully original amplifier. But I don't think there are many amps of this age who are. Personally, the tolex in its current state is not my greatest worry. In the past 48 years there's done a lot, ofcourse not always as it 'should be'. Sometimes I see it as an old car. Parts get replaced of improved through the years. For the vintage value it has a negative impact, I'm definately aware of that. But I also try to realize how rare this amplifier is and it's absolutely not common that they appear in my region.

    I'm a real Marshall lover. I own several Marshall amps: some completely original, some restored and some modified. I said I shall think about it and first I want to know what I'm buying, and not without knowing what I'm TRULY interested in.

    Cheers!
     
  8. pleximaster

    pleximaster Well-Known Member

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    I like these kinds of Marshall projects but for 2500 euros its a bit high as the OT and choke are gone... the other stuff are easier to find. I´d buy it in a heart beat if they were original for that money. Now its a tough call price wise. Thing is (I personally) that if I´d had the transformer (or knew were to get an original) to fit the amp I´d actually would be more willing to pay more for it.

    plexi
     
  9. Ace Major

    Ace Major Member

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    Still doubting about this one. Don't know what to do to be honest.

    Will it go up in value as the years go by? Or is that out of the question due to its replaced parts?
     
  10. Blokkadeleider

    Blokkadeleider Well-Known Member

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    Here's a gut shot of my own black flag.

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    Admitted... I only paid Fl75,- (€35) back in late 1989 :)


    Gr,

    Gerrit.
     
    JeffH likes this.
  11. Söulcaster

    Söulcaster Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Looks like a fire hazard Blok, better send it to me.:wave:
     
  12. seeker88

    seeker88 New Member

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    Will it be worth more one day? I think all this stuff is basically worth what someone will pay for it. Not to say there isn't a basic market value guideline to follow but... If you buy it most likely there will be another person down the road who will have the extra cash and the hots for it too. Go with your gut feelings.
     
  13. 66SuperTremolo

    66SuperTremolo Active Member

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    The only real value in these amps is based on % of Originality and overall cosmetic condition.

    Scale of 1 - 10 .......... I'd rate this 3

    With the O/T and Choke gone, that's enough for me to say forget it. Mods. Changed bits, pathetic recover job. No collector value there, even with replaced Trannies it's a basic player grade amp.

    It's like people paying big $$$$ for re-coned vintage speakers ! No Orig Cone - No Orig Tone. This thing is worth the sum of its Original parts only........ and there isn't much value there.

    If this guy's had it for 20 yrs, he's really buggered a Classic unfortunately. As for appreciating in value........ NO
     
  14. London John

    London John Active Member

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    I disagree.

    See, I can be diplomatic.
     
  15. 66SuperTremolo

    66SuperTremolo Active Member

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    So taking a '68 G12M having it demagnetised, and the removal and replacement of all the moving parts in the speaker frame (with non original) - voice coil (now different gap in the re-coned one), spider, cone, surround, gaskets, dust cap and leads, remagnetised -is going to yield a speaker with the same tone as the original ?

    I've seen originals where only severe tears in the original cone were properly repaired, yet changed the tone.

    Having original speakers re-coned is in the main to retain the original (to the combo / speaker cab) look for originality purposes. Not saying it won't sound ok, but won't replicate the originals tone.
     
  16. seeker88

    seeker88 New Member

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    You're right, it won't sound the same. But then again everything changes with time if you use it, don't use it or store it improperly. The re-coned speakers, if done professionally by someone who specializes in trying to the best of his ability reproduce a vintage tone as the originals, will need to be broken in all over again.

    Also I think we need separate the collector museum pieces from the nice vintage players as well as the collectors from the players. As a player, a well regarded tech/builder told me years ago "don't buy the mint Fender amp from the old lady who stored it in the closet for 30 years. Buy the one played up on a stage, in bars or at least turned on several times a month." If I was solely in the market to buy/hold/sell I would have to rethink that. It's all cool though. We all love gear, that's why we're are on here.
     
  17. Ace Major

    Ace Major Member

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    Thanks for your reactions so far!

    I'm still interested and that's why I contacted the guy yesterday. I told him that the bad re-cover is not my biggest problem, but the incorrect replaced parts are. Meanwhile, the amp was seen by some experts and now he also confirmes that the choke and OT are replaced.

    He wouldn't take less than € 2500,- in the first place but we made an agreement for € 2000,- now. Seems quite reasonable to me. Maybe still a bit high on price, but hey, I like this amp! A requirement is that all tubes, capacitors, etc. are in good shape.
     
  18. seeker88

    seeker88 New Member

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    Enjoy your new amp! I think the guys here gave you some good advice, both from a resale point of view and as a "player" amp.

    But you know out of all the factors pertaining to whether I bond and hold onto a particular guitar or amp the "like factor" out weighs them all. If I was a three chord playing collector or buying/selling vintage instruments to put food on the table and shoes on my kids feet then maybe not.

    Btw $2,000 barley gets you a new boutique copy only worth 1/2 that price upon resale.
     
  19. neikeel

    neikeel Well-Known Member

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    If you send it to me with 500 euros I can put it back ot stock spec (the recover you would need to do yourself). :D
     
  20. Ace Major

    Ace Major Member

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    Picking up this thread again about a year later now. My tech is working on it at the moment, he is looking for some correct parts. Found an exact replica OT in the States. Restoration will cost about 500-600 euro's but I think it's worth it. New tolex will be the next step after the amp is fixed. I'm thinking about recovering it in purple tolex.

    Will post pic's ASAP!
     

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