Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!!

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 02:13 PM

Hi Everyone,

I have to make a decision by the end of tonight:
1987x 50w or a 100w 1959.

1] Is the 1987x as sweet an amp as the 100 watt 1959? I only play low volumes, is it as desirable and sound as good?

2] Do any of the 1959's come with Master Volumes or have they in the past? The 50w may have as the 2203 I think?

I do not know please help.

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

Hi Everyone,

I have to make a decision by the end of tonight:
1987x 50w or a 100w 1959.

1] Is the 1987x as sweet an amp as the 100 watt 1959? I only play low volumes, is it as desirable and sound as good?

2] Do any of the 1959's come with Master Volumes or have they in the past? The 50w may have as the 2203 I think?

I do not know please help.

I honestly don't see the whole "I play at low volumes so I'll go with the 50 watt instead of a 100 watt" statement. The perceivable volume difference between the two is only 3dB...hardly discernable. And as you stated, the master volume gives you a way to turn it down and it will work the same on a 100 watt as it will on a 50 watt. On top of it all, the price difference between a 50 watt and a 100 watt shouldn't be all that much different since it's only two more output valves, different transformers and a couple extra filter caps.

As to the master volume - if it's the post phase inverter type, those sound AMAZINGLY close to what the head would sound like cranked on a power soak. Not enough of a tonal difference between the two to be concerned with it.

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 02:44 PM

Thanks John.
I suppose the idea of volume came from if you have a 50w you can drive it harder and get a better sound than the same volume in a 100 watt head... does that make sense? Just like people want 5w valve amps to drive them at more manageable volumes than a 50w... I guess I just extended that idea

How would you describe the tonal differences between these two amps?

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

Thanks John.
I suppose the idea of volume came from if you have a 50w you can drive it harder and get a better sound than the same volume in a 100 watt head... does that make sense? Just like people want 5w valve amps to drive them at more manageable volumes than a 50w... I guess I just extended that idea

How would you describe the tonal differences between these two amps?

Yeah but...the difference between 5 watts and 50 watts is 10dB, which is perceived by the human ear as being "double the volume" or "1/2 the volume" depending on how you look at it. It can be said that a 50 watt is "double the volume" of a 5 watt, or a 5 watt is "1/2 the volume" of a 50 watt.

This is because the 50 watt is 10x the power of a 5 watt. It takes 10x the power to get 10dB more/double the volume.

However, a 100 watt is only DOUBLE (2x) the power of a 50 watt, hence why you only have a 3db difference in perceived volume.

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 02:51 PM

Ah, I see.
So I need help... what should I go for?... the 100 watt always regardless as all other things being equal in the amp it will give more headroom and always be better?

Or does the 50w have characteristics that are desirable because of its output?

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

Ah, I see.
So I need help... what should I go for?... the 100 watt always regardless as all other things being equal in the amp it will give more headroom and always be better?

Or does the 50w have characteristics that are desirable because of its output?

At full crank a 50 watt will overdrive more than a 100 watt due to having less headroom. Of course, this is assuming you run the amp at full tilt all the time. In order to do that, you would have to get a power attenuator for both the 50 and 100 watt.

A 50 watt will also sag a bit more than a 100 watt will. Again this is assuming you're running full tilt all the time.

As far as which is "better", that's up to your ears to decide. But to help you along, here's a clip of a flat out cranked and overdriven Super Lead running through a Marshall Power Brake set at 1 click up from full attenuation through a slant cab loaded with Celestion G12H-30 Anniversary series speakers, '69 spec circuit with a 3.3H Mercury Magnetics MAR100C choke.

http://www.wilderamplification.com/s.../Original1.mp3

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 03:05 PM

Many thanks for your help.

One more question: Am I right in assuming that at anything other than full tilt the 'sag' would be hardly noticeable say at half volume setting?

You see realistically at my local pub I doubt I would use it anywhere near full tilt and there possibly would be little difference between them for the majority of its life with me.

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

Many thanks for your help.

One more question: Am I right in assuming that at anything other than full tilt the 'sag' would be hardly noticeable say at half volume setting?

You see realistically at my local pub I doubt I would use it anywhere near full tilt and there possibly would be little difference between them for the majority of its life with me.

Depending on the amp, that may or may not be where the sag JUST starts to kick in at. Again one of those things you have to try. If you're worried about the sag and want the amp to stay tight at your normal playing volume, I'd go with the 100 watt.

Bret138 · 11-04-2009, 03:19 PM

a few questions I would think would be important in making this choice...

what type of music are you playing? and are you planning on using an attenuator?

I have a 1987... and in small venues I think its pretty safe to say you won't be playing anywhere near loud enough to get the breakup, I'm assuming, you desire without using an attenuator or installing a PPIMV. And that goes for either 1987 or 1959

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 03:49 PM

I play Gary Moore type blues rock and I suppose I may need to use an attenuator at times when trying to keep on my neighbours good side, but not in the pub I suppose, I would just drive it a bit up front with a mild booster.

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

I play Gary Moore type blues rock and I suppose I may need to use an attenuator at times when trying to keep on my neighbours good side, but not in the pub I suppose, I would just drive it a bit up front with a mild booster.

Again...with a master volume you can adjust volume from full off to full on with adjustability in between. No attenuator needed unless you want to overdrive the power valves themselves.

Bret138 · 11-04-2009, 04:02 PM

in that case i would probably say the 1959 and an attenuator or mod it for a master volume (unless you got a vintage one)

and i don't know...I think you might be underestimating the sheer volume you'll have to be playing at to get any break up. I may be wrong..but i believe they are rated at 100 watts BEFORE they get to the good breakup point. Not 100 watts at full power..

j2112c · 11-04-2009, 05:26 PM

Thanks for all the replies, it has been really helpful. I was having kittens about an order I had in, but it has been useful.

I have decided to leave my order as it is for a 50w 1987x with the master volume mod (but I will now check how it has been done now, in terms of the phase inverter).

Volume is not an issue as they are perceivably the same.
Sag for me may not be an issue due to the lower levels I am going to be playing at and I am not so worried on this count.

If I was playing big halls at full tilt the differences of sag or headroom would be more pertinent, I think at my level the differences are probably negligible and I should stop fretting.

I will drive the 50w and use the master volume.
There are many Harmony Central reviews saying it is LOUD! (there seems to be a lot of people who would have liked a master volume).

If I need more - when Ozzy calls me to replace Wylde - I will just mike it up for Wembly!

Many thanks guys I appreciate it.

Bret138 · 11-04-2009, 05:39 PM

ohhh i didn't realize the 50 watter already had a master volume mod.

i think you'll be happy with that then!

are you buying new?(obviously not if it has a mod, correct?) or used? what year? (sorry i'm just reallly interested in these two amp models)

Wilder Amplification · 11-04-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j2112c

Thanks for all the replies, it has been really helpful. I was having kittens about an order I had in, but it has been useful.

I have decided to leave my order as it is for a 50w 1987x with the master volume mod (but I will now check how it has been done now, in terms of the phase inverter).

Volume is not an issue as they are perceivably the same.
Sag for me may not be an issue due to the lower levels I am going to be playing at and I am not so worried on this count.

If I was playing big halls at full tilt the differences of sag or headroom would be more pertinent, I think at my level the differences are probably negligible and I should stop fretting.

I will drive the 50w and use the master volume.
There are many Harmony Central reviews saying it is LOUD! (there seems to be a lot of people who would have liked a master volume).

If I need more - when Ozzy calls me to replace Wylde - I will just mike it up for Wembly!

Many thanks guys I appreciate it.

He's having a clone built.

Make sure they know that you want a post-phase-inverter master volume, not a standard pre-phase-inverter type. They sound distinctly different and you'll be much happier with the former than the latter.

11-04-2009, 02:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! Hi Everyone, I have to make a decision by the end of tonight: 1987x 50w or a 100w 1959. 1] Is the 1987x as sweet an amp as the 100 watt 1959? I only play low volumes, is it as desirable and sound as good? 2] Do any of the 1959's come with Master Volumes or have they in the past? The 50w may have as the 2203 I think? I do not know please help.

11-04-2009, 02:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! Thanks John. I suppose the idea of volume came from if you have a 50w you can drive it harder and get a better sound than the same volume in a 100 watt head... does that make sense? Just like people want 5w valve amps to drive them at more manageable volumes than a 50w... I guess I just extended that idea How would you describe the tonal differences between these two amps?

11-04-2009, 02:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! Ah, I see. So I need help... what should I go for?... the 100 watt always regardless as all other things being equal in the amp it will give more headroom and always be better? Or does the 50w have characteristics that are desirable because of its output?

11-04-2009, 03:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! Many thanks for your help. One more question: Am I right in assuming that at anything other than full tilt the 'sag' would be hardly noticeable say at half volume setting? You see realistically at my local pub I doubt I would use it anywhere near full tilt and there possibly would be little difference between them for the majority of its life with me.

11-04-2009, 03:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bret138 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Harlem Posts: 31	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! a few questions I would think would be important in making this choice... what type of music are you playing? and are you planning on using an attenuator? I have a 1987... and in small venues I think its pretty safe to say you won't be playing anywhere near loud enough to get the breakup, I'm assuming, you desire without using an attenuator or installing a PPIMV. And that goes for either 1987 or 1959 __________________ '88 Marshall JMP 1987 Fender Hot Rod DeVille 410 Valve Jr.

11-04-2009, 03:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! I play Gary Moore type blues rock and I suppose I may need to use an attenuator at times when trying to keep on my neighbours good side, but not in the pub I suppose, I would just drive it a bit up front with a mild booster.

11-04-2009, 04:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
Bret138 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Harlem Posts: 31	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! in that case i would probably say the 1959 and an attenuator or mod it for a master volume (unless you got a vintage one) and i don't know...I think you might be underestimating the sheer volume you'll have to be playing at to get any break up. I may be wrong..but i believe they are rated at 100 watts BEFORE they get to the good breakup point. Not 100 watts at full power.. __________________ '88 Marshall JMP 1987 Fender Hot Rod DeVille 410 Valve Jr.

11-04-2009, 05:26 PM	#13 (permalink)
j2112c Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 17	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! Thanks for all the replies, it has been really helpful. I was having kittens about an order I had in, but it has been useful. I have decided to leave my order as it is for a 50w 1987x with the master volume mod (but I will now check how it has been done now, in terms of the phase inverter). Volume is not an issue as they are perceivably the same. Sag for me may not be an issue due to the lower levels I am going to be playing at and I am not so worried on this count. If I was playing big halls at full tilt the differences of sag or headroom would be more pertinent, I think at my level the differences are probably negligible and I should stop fretting. I will drive the 50w and use the master volume. There are many Harmony Central reviews saying it is LOUD! (there seems to be a lot of people who would have liked a master volume). If I need more - when Ozzy calls me to replace Wylde - I will just mike it up for Wembly! Many thanks guys I appreciate it.

11-04-2009, 05:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
Bret138 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Harlem Posts: 31	Re: Guys Please Help Tonight - 50 watt 1987x or 100 watt 1959?!! ohhh i didn't realize the 50 watter already had a master volume mod. i think you'll be happy with that then! are you buying new?(obviously not if it has a mod, correct?) or used? what year? (sorry i'm just reallly interested in these two amp models) __________________ '88 Marshall JMP 1987 Fender Hot Rod DeVille 410 Valve Jr.

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