DSL 100 MLB Questions... - Page 2

Buggs.Crosby · 10-26-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

And a 50 watt Marshall will only be 3dB quieter, albeit with a little more breakup/overdrive. The only way to go if you want power valve overdrive on stage with a 50 or 100 watter is to go with an attenuator IMHO. Half the people on this site bash the power soak method, and I doubt half of that half of them have even tried one and are just regurgitating what they read somewhere else.

Yes, it is a tonal compromise due to not having speaker distortion...but due to the fact that you can't push the speakers hard enough to get that anyway due to volume restrictions, it's a lot less of a tonal compromise than using a pedal in front of the amp. But...can you honestly name a valve or solid state overdrive pedal that can get a better sound than a cranked valve amp through a power soak?

Jon. i have read on the GT site that the GTel34l's are JJ's but with their improvments

....like i said i just dont buy into hype...or maybe i do as i did buy the MM ot tranny to see if the claims where true.
part of the reason i dont use the 59ri live is the Loudness issue ( i cant even crank the DSL) the other is my desire to keep it as mint as it is
as for more "Distortion" someone miss read me somewhere as i said there is more than enough gain on the DSL for my needs...but for tonal reasons maybe i will pull two valves and see if i like it
Here is the description on the GT's
http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/16...inal_e34ls.pdf

P.S the more you post the more i learn.

...so please continue

jcmjmp · 10-26-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buggs.Crosby

maybe i do as i did buy the MM ot tranny to see if the claims where true.

GT is marketing hype and nothing more.

As for MM trannies, they are top notch and clearly a leap forward compared to the stock unit in your DSL. There're no hype there.

Wilder Amplification · 10-26-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well I think a lot of what you say is true. I sometimes feel in most cases, money plays a major role. I mean most guys aren't going to dump $300 for an attenuator/power soak. So I think you're right when they make comments based on NPU (No Prior Use). They read something negative and they reflect this in the various forums. I myself own one and I bought it to obtain a different sound. As I said before, power tube break up with a soft distortion, but they do sound different when driven hard. Plus a power soak keeps my cup of tea warm.

I think if someone is on a budget and they own a 100 watt amp, but are looking for a practice amp...an attenuator is the way to go. Turn your big amp into your practice amp.

And I have to say something about speakers. You have to duplicate the speakers used in an early 70's Marshall cab to get speaker break up. This is a very fine line between a killer sound and four dead speakers. There is an art to warming up speakers and getting them to distort without frying the voice coil.

I'd say that 80 per cent of the guys on this forum use speakers rated at over 50 watts each in their 4 x 12's. Most are 60 to 75 watts. You are not going to get speaker distortion with those types of speakers. Now if your amp is distorting, the speaker will reproduce that distortion.

Exactly, but they're just reproducing the distortion from the amp itself. In that scenario, worrying about "not getting speaker breakup" becomes a moot point.

I think if a guitarist had enough power available to distort 50/60/75 watt speakers it would be "death by sheer volume".

I personally prefer 30 watters. I run the Anniversary series G12H-30s...they have the perfect amount of low end rolloff to my ears (not a boomy speaker in the least) and plenty of highs to cut through without being harsh or "icepicky".

I also run the Marshall Power Brake, simply because they're moddable with a footswitchable rhythm/lead volume control. Would like to see if there was any way to mod the circuit in a THD with the same deal, but I've never seen a schematic for one of these. Also, the chassis size would come into play here as well as I'd have to be able to fit the parts required to mod them.

Here's a great example of 100 watter flat out cranked through a Power Brake with as much attenuation as I can get from the Power Brake through my G12H-30 Anniversary cab.

http://www.wilderamplification.com/s.../Original1.mp3

'69 cab with G12M-25 Greenbacks

http://www.wilderamplification.com/soundclips/Clip2.mp3

And here it is with my old '73 straight cab with original G12H-30 greenbacks.

http://www.wilderamplification.com/s...icclassic1.mp3

Wilder Amplification · 10-26-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buggs.Crosby

Jon. i have read on the GT site that the GTel34l's are JJ's but with their improvments

....like i said i just dont buy into hype...or maybe i do as i did buy the MM ot tranny to see if the claims where true.
part of the reason i dont use the 59ri live is the Loudness issue ( i cant even crank the DSL) the other is my desire to keep it as mint as it is
as for more "Distortion" someone miss read me somewhere as i said there is more than enough gain on the DSL for my needs...but for tonal reasons maybe i will pull two valves and see if i like it
Here is the description on the GT's
http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/16...inal_e34ls.pdf

P.S the more you post the more i learn.

...so please continue

All they supposedly do is add the bigger heat sink wings to the plate, which they allows for better heat dissipation by increasing the effective surface area of the plate. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Read on -

First off, plain and simple, all valves do is pass current from the power supply. The valve is connected in series with 1/2 of the OT primary coil, and this circuit is placed across the power supply. The valve is a metering device that uses an input signal to control how much current the power supply can pull through it and the OT primary, like an electrical current metering "valve". The amplitude of the input signal controls the valve's effective plate resistance, i.e. how much the valve can open and let more current pass through it and the OT primary. As current flows through the impedance of the OT primary, it creates a voltage drop across the primary. This voltage drop along with the current is magnetically transmitted to the secondary on the other side through the iron core. The current flow through the OT combined with the voltage drop it produces across the OT primary creates power.

Valves do not MAKE power...they pass current through the OT. The current flowing through the OT creates a voltage drop across the OT primary impedance, and this voltage drop combined with the current flowing through the OT primary is your power. All the valve does is pass the current through the OT to get the voltage drop across it. Now...that being said, read this bit of information -

"...by adding the GT exclusive heat sink wings to the plates, which stabilizes the operation at high power levels (read "higher heat levels!") by improving the heat dissipation so that all the energy from the plate makes it to the speaker (instead of overheating the tube),"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a valve with 100% efficient power transfer. On top of this, there is no such thing as a 100% efficient output transformer either so you have some heat losses in there as well. So this blows the whole "all the energy from the plate makes it to the speaker" BS. As long as there is current flow, there will be some heat loss.

Improving heat dissipation does not improve the power transfer efficiency of the valve, it simply allows it to take the power dissipated as heat better. On top of that, from what I can tell in the pics, those heat sink wings aren't even on the plate!!! They're on the control grids, just like they are on every JJ E34L!

Yet they're counting on the fact that most guitar players do not know these things and exploiting that misinfo to sell a product. All Aspen did was discover the limited scope of electronics knowledge that most guitar players have and found a way to capitalize off of it, which IMHO is fucked up to say the least.

This is a perfect example of why I will never support anything that has to do with Aspen Pittman. The GTE34LS is nothing more than a way overpriced JJ E34L with a bunch of snake oil in it.

solarburnDSL50 · 10-27-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

All they supposedly do is add the bigger heat sink wings to the plate, which they allows for better heat dissipation by increasing the effective surface area of the plate. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Read on -

First off, plain and simple, all valves do is pass current from the power supply. The valve is connected in series with 1/2 of the OT primary coil, and this circuit is placed across the power supply. The valve is a metering device that uses an input signal to control how much current the power supply can pull through it and the OT primary, like an electrical current metering "valve". The amplitude of the input signal controls the valve's effective plate resistance, i.e. how much the valve can open and let more current pass through it and the OT primary. As current flows through the impedance of the OT primary, it creates a voltage drop across the primary. This voltage drop along with the current is magnetically transmitted to the secondary on the other side through the iron core. The current flow through the OT combined with the voltage drop it produces across the OT primary creates power.

Valves do not MAKE power...they pass current through the OT. The current flowing through the OT creates a voltage drop across the OT primary impedance, and this voltage drop combined with the current flowing through the OT primary is your power. All the valve does is pass the current through the OT to get the voltage drop across it. Now...that being said, read this bit of information -

"...by adding the GT exclusive heat sink wings to the plates, which stabilizes the operation at high power levels (read "higher heat levels!") by improving the heat dissipation so that all the energy from the plate makes it to the speaker (instead of overheating the tube),"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a valve with 100% efficient power transfer. On top of this, there is no such thing as a 100% efficient output transformer either so you have some heat losses in there as well. So this blows the whole "all the energy from the plate makes it to the speaker" BS. As long as there is current flow, there will be some heat loss.

Improving heat dissipation does not improve the power transfer efficiency of the valve, it simply allows it to take the power dissipated as heat better. On top of that, from what I can tell in the pics, those heat sink wings aren't even on the plate!!! They're on the control grids, just like they are on every JJ E34L!

Yet they're counting on the fact that most guitar players do not know these things and exploiting that misinfo to sell a product. All Aspen did was discover the limited scope of electronics knowledge that most guitar players have and found a way to capitalize off of it, which IMHO is fucked up to say the least.

This is a perfect example of why I will never support anything that has to do with Aspen Pittman. The GTE34LS is nothing more than a way overpriced JJ E34L with a bunch of snake oil in it.

That is fucked up!

Ken · 10-27-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

But...can you honestly name a valve or solid state overdrive pedal that can get a better sound than a cranked valve amp through a power soak?

Yes.

An Ibanez Tube Screamer on my DSL clean channel gets a JCM 800 vibe really well; it's my "AC/DC" tone. It's not "better" than the amp alone as that's subjective, but it's a sound I like and can't get with the amp alone. I agree distortion pedals are a little too compressed (Think "Big Muff"), but a gain device like the Tube Screamer makes sweet tones.

ALL pro guitarists use an overdrive pedal live these days. It's a useful tool to have in your arsenel.

Ken

solarburnDSL50 · 10-27-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken

Yes.

An Ibanez Tube Screamer on my DSL clean channel gets a JCM 800 vibe really well; it's my "AC/DC" tone. It's not "better" than the amp alone as that's subjective, but it's a sound I like and can't get with the amp alone. I agree distortion pedals are a little too compressed (Think "Big Muff"), but a gain device like the Tube Screamer makes sweet tones.

ALL pro guitarists use an overdrive pedal live these days. It's a useful tool to have in your arsenel.

Ken

I luv boosting the crunch channel. Great foundation for OD pedals. I don't use distortion pedals.

Wilder Amplification · 10-27-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken

ALL pro guitarists use an overdrive pedal live these days. It's a useful tool to have in your arsenel.

Ken

And what I find funny about this is the fact that playing in big arenas like the pro guitarists do you'd think they'd be running Marshall full stacks cranked with NO attenuator...simply because you could get away with that shit in a big arena. The arena is a lot bigger so there's a LOT more air to move, and a 100 watt Marshall stack simply could not move it all to be loud like it would be in a small club. On top of that, the PA would be loud enough that it would mask the full volume of a 100 watt Marshall stack. No attenuator needed in that scenario.

I'll bet money AC/DC still does it this way.

LesPaulopolis · 10-27-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

Right, that's due to the fact that the 100 watter has a higher clean voltage swing/headroom than a 50 watt.

You should try the trick I mentioned previously, where you pull either the two inner or two outer power valves out, then drop your ohms selector down 1 setting from where it currently is. In other words, when running a 100 watt amp in 50 watt configuration as mentioned above, you want to mismatch by a factor of 2. If you have a 16 ohm cab you run on the 8 ohm setting and for an 8 ohm cab you'd run on the 4 ohm setting. This is because running two valves will require double the impedance on the valve side of the OT, and mismatching up by double will achieve this. Again you'll have to rebias the amp since the plate voltage will come up some (only a little bit...not enough to cause alarm for anything...it will just change where you bias at) only running two valves. But running it this way in 50 watt mode should get it to break up at a lower volume since it will drop the headroom of the amp.

This is how I run my 4100. No question that it's a great "free" way to slightly alter the breakup/headroom of your 100w amp. 3dB is NOT a lot of volume, but can be the difference between "there" and "not" on your "tonequest".

Richman1 · 10-27-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I got this amp for my son today after going in a shop and listening to some Mesa's. They had one sitting there, me being older and into classic rock, I said "Hey let's listen to the Marshall." Well, he loved it, and I loved it. We got it for 1200 and it seems like a steal for all of this. I'm not knowledgeable about Marshalls, but it certainly seems to have the classic rock sound nailed.

I realize they are discontinued and I've tried to read what I could about these amps, apparently just differing in their cabinet cosmetics and construction, and the cab not being very high end. But still...the sound was killer and the deal seemed terrific.

What I wanted to ask is what you think the best tubes are for these, I'm assuming it doesn't come with great tubes and thought of replacing them. I'm not technical at all, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be too hard to change them, and if just the preamp tubes, wouldn't require a tech....correct? Thanks to all for any advice....

Tom

I love the DSL's, and I always use JJ's. standard gain tube kit from eurotubes.com. They are around $70.00 for the 50 watt. not sure about the 100 watt. you will hear a big difference.

Ken · 10-27-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

And what I find funny about this is the fact that playing in big arenas like the pro guitarists do you'd think they'd be running Marshall full stacks cranked with NO attenuator...simply because you could get away with that shit in a big arena. The arena is a lot bigger so there's a LOT more air to move, and a 100 watt Marshall stack simply could not move it all to be loud like it would be in a small club. On top of that, the PA would be loud enough that it would mask the full volume of a 100 watt Marshall stack. No attenuator needed in that scenario.

I'll bet money AC/DC still does it this way.

I've never played an arena, but I'd approach it like I do now: my stack is my personal guitar monitor and I set the volume so I can hear myself how I like it. I might only run the top if it's all I need. The PA takes care of balance because I'm clueless about how a stage mix sounds to the room. With a 50 watt DSL on about 4 I'm not TOO loud (usually) and I'm pushing enough air to get the tone.

I don't know what the "Marshall bands" do but I'll bet they do the same thing: run through 1 stack (if that!) and let the PA and monitors do the rest. I'll bet 4/5's of the stacks on stage are dummies in bands who have a backline. No one runs 5-10 stacks on stage these days...well I'm not aware of anyone who does at least!

And yes, they all have a pedal board and a little extra gain during solos really brings out the guitar without blowing away everyone else.

Ken

D.Dailey · 10-27-2009, 04:34 PM

Guess Hype "Is What It Is!"
http://www.groovetubes.com/f-n-r.cfm
I sure am happy myself I did not listen to the Hype that Jim Marshall's marketing staff put with the DSL I bought 11 years ago..
At the rate the tubes that came with it pooped out.
I probebly would have had to buy at least 5-6 sets instead of the three I have,, and still only on the second...
So much for overpriced GT EL34L's..
I wonder what a good set of tubes would be like in my rig?
As it was,, the difference was noticable enough to where when it came time to replace the first replacements..
I bought two sets...
Guess I will just have to live with the substandard GT-EL34L's I got...
Dang It! :

P.S.
Check out a Teddy Nugent show sometime..

He's usually packin 4-6 5150's..
But hes not what I call a normal fella..

YouTube - Ted Nugent - Stranglehold

I think the 2 6505's may be his monitor..

The origional album cut was done on a little Deluxe I beleive.

YouTube - Ted Nugent - Free For All

On July 4th 2008 Ted Nugent celebrated Independence Day as only he could with a concert in his home city of Detroit that marked the 6000th live performance of his remarkable career..
Trust me,, I have seen a few..

Wilder Amplification · 10-27-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Dailey

Guess Hype "Is What It Is!"
f-n-r @ Groove Tubes
I sure am happy myself I did not listen to the Hype that Jim Marshall's marketing staff put with the DSL I bought 11 years ago..
At the rate the tubes that came with it pooped out.
I probebly would have had to buy at least 5-6 sets instead of the three I have,, and still only on the second...
So much for overpriced GT EL34L's..
I wonder what a good set of tubes would be like in my rig?
As it was,, the difference was noticable enough to where when it came time to replace the first replacements..
I bought two sets...
Guess I will just have to live with the substandard GT-EL34L's I got...
Dang It! :

P.S.
Check out a Teddy Nugent show sometime..

He's usually packin 4-6 5150's..
But hes not what I call a normal fella..
YouTube - Ted Nugent - Stranglehold
I think the 2 6500's may be his monitor..

The origional album cut was done on a little Deluxe I beleive.

YouTube - Ted Nugent - Free For All
On July 4th 2008 Ted Nugent celebrated Independence Day as only he could with a concert in his home city of Detroit that marked the 6000th live performance of his remarkable career..
Trust me,, I have seen a few..

Ted Nugent is God! Just thought I'd throw that out.

At any rate, all I'm saying is why pay a company that misleads the guitarist community to make an overpriced sale when you can buy a set of the same exact valve from one of the other valve suppliers that won't blow marketing hype smoke up your ass at a much more reasonable price?

MartyStrat54 · 10-27-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

It is a common characteristic for valves to clip ASYMMETRICALLY. This is part of what we love about the sound of valves. This is why valve clipping generates even order harmonics and transistors do not. This is because transistors symmetrically clip so the even order harmonics get canceled out. Transistors also do not have a non-linear region in their load curve like valves do. And every valve hits this non-linear region at a different point and you can never match two that hit it the same.

Let's extrapolate this, because it brings us to another common argument. A Marshall amp is made with a lot of parts that are not "precision matched." In other words, you are going to find a large percentage of + or - 20 per cent components. The front end of the amp isn't "matched." Even power tubes that are within 3 per cent of each other still operate a little differently and as you said the waveform is asymmetrical.

With this in mind, do you feel that it is imperative for the PI tube to be perfectly balanced, or do you think a little slop is okay?

I used to be a believer in the balanced PI hype. But then I got my facts straight and found out that the guitar amp is imperfect. There is no need for a perfect PI tube. In fact, some guitarist and harp players use a lop-sided PI tube to get richer harmonic content. I did numerous tests on this with several members and the verdict was it really doesn't matter what you stick in there, it will work. Some people like a 12AT7 in the PI and some people like a matched high gain 12AX7 in there. I don't get upset over people who use matched PI tubes, I just get upset that once again it is certain tube sellers that are pushing this hype to make $6 more off of a tube.

What's your two-cents?

Wilder Amplification · 10-28-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Let's extrapolate this, because it brings us to another common argument. A Marshall amp is made with a lot of parts that are not "precision matched." In other words, you are going to find a large percentage of + or - 20 per cent components. The front end of the amp isn't "matched." Even power tubes that are within 3 per cent of each other still operate a little differently and as you said the waveform is asymmetrical.

With this in mind, do you feel that it is imperative for the PI tube to be perfectly balanced, or do you think a little slop is okay?

I used to be a believer in the balanced PI hype. But then I got my facts straight and found out that the guitar amp is imperfect. There is no need for a perfect PI tube. In fact, some guitarist and harp players use a lop-sided PI tube to get richer harmonic content. I did numerous tests on this with several members and the verdict was it really doesn't matter what you stick in there, it will work. Some people like a 12AT7 in the PI and some people like a matched high gain 12AX7 in there. I don't get upset over people who use matched PI tubes, I just get upset that once again it is certain tube sellers that are pushing this hype to make $6 more off of a tube.

What's your two-cents?

Fuck $0.02...I could give about $100* and a days worth of writing on this subject (*disclaimer - the reference to "giving $100" was strictly semantics and "so to speak" and is in no way, shape or form meant to state that I would give anyone $100).

It's interesting that you mention the PI imbalance. When I used to work for another shop, there was a mod that we'd do to the Fender Bassman Reissue that would effectively turn it into a harp amp. It was a mod we reverse engineered from a Kinder Harp King and one of the things it involved was installing a resistor between the 470 ohm in the PI circuit and the cathode of the "grounded grid" side of the PI to purposely unbalance the PI.

I'm with you 100% on the whole component tolerance mismatch and the whole 9. Fact is, in a hi-fi application you want them as balanced as you can get them, but a guitar amp set up "fully balanced" like a hi-fi amp would lack all of the character that makes valve guitar amps sound the way they do. It is those imbalances, imperfections and tolerances that give these things the magic.

One area where there will ALWAYS be mismatch is in the OT itself. Each 1/2 of the primary has an equal number of windings. However, due to the coil geometry as you add more and more layers of winds to the bobbin, it takes more wire to make 1 full turn around the bobbin as the coil diameter increases. This will create a plate load imbalance that you cannot get rid of. And if you were to try to compensate by not going with as many turns on the outer half of the primary I think that would cause some issues with the turns ratio itself.

The biggest line of bullshit I've heard from Aspen Pittman was straight from his book "The Tube Manual" where he states that because their matching process balances the valves by matching them to one that clips the same and they're both working symmetrically that your OT will run cooler. WTF!!!??? Running balanced/unbalanced has nothing to do with the heat dissipation of the OT! That all has to do with how much current the power supply is pulling through it.

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