JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator

mountain2012 · 07-01-2009, 08:10 AM

Do the JCM800's that are being produced by Marshall right now have diode clipping?

With the use of an attenuator to play at reasonable volumes, can I get a Slash tone from a Plexi? Basically, can a Plexi imitate a JCM800 or is there not enough gain in the Plexi?

tarznamps · 07-01-2009, 12:00 PM

I don't know much about actual designs and schematics - others can coment on that.

I think that the first diod clipping Marshall was the JCM 800 2205/2210. Those were also the first channel switching Marshalls I believe.

JCM 800 series: Models - 1959, 1986, 1987, 1992, 2203, 2204, 2205 & 2210

I don't think a plexi would sound like Slash unless you use some type of drive/distortion pedal.

My 1987 sounds WAY different than my Vintage Modern which is what Slash uses.

American Viking · 07-01-2009, 06:07 PM

if you get a JCM800 you won't need an attenuator. It has a master volume already. The reissues do not have any diode clipping circuits and a plexi can sound and get as dirty as an 800 but you would need to boost it just a tad with a tube screamer type pedal or like a Boss SD-1. A very light overdrive is all you need to make those puppies scream.
If you get a plexi then maybe an attenuator would suit you but there's no point in having one on an amp with master volume.

jcmjmp · 07-01-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Viking

if you get a JCM800 you won't need an attenuator. It has a master volume already. The reissues do not have any diode clipping circuits and a plexi can sound and get as dirty as an 800 but you would need to boost it just a tad with a tube screamer type pedal or like a Boss SD-1. A very light overdrive is all you need to make those puppies scream.
If you get a plexi then maybe an attenuator would suit you but there's no point in having one on an amp with master volume.

The way I setup my JCM800 2204, I need an attenuator. I can only get the amount of gain I need with the master past the 5 mark. That's effing loud and the attenuator helps in taming the beast.

mountain2012 · 07-01-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Viking

if you get a JCM800 you won't need an attenuator. It has a master volume already.

I want to crank the master to get some nice power tube distortion, although I'm concerned it would be a little flubby if I did that.

American Viking · 07-01-2009, 11:28 PM

Of course they breathe better once you can get past the 3 mark on the master but power tube distortion is very minimal compared to preamp distortion. I used to defend this out put distortion a lot but when I see people getting amps like the DSL/TSL and buying attenuators it drives me crazy. Those things have so much front end gain that no one can tell that the power tubes are breaking up at all. I think a lot of people are wasting money, I don't see what is expected of an amp when you have to quiet them down to a whisper. On a JCM800 there isn't a whole lot of difference one you get past 3 or 4 on the master, it's damn near wide open at that point.
I think mine sound great from 2 on up. If it's too loud, I just turn it down (or put in earplugs and turn it up!)

A lot of people have a completely different opinion on this but I'm one of those guys that doesn't have to ever worry about being too loud. Whenever in the past it may have been an issue, I just turned my amp down, I don't expect the holy grail of tone to happen at the level of a whisper, it's just not going to happen, but to each his own.

Good luck on the rock and roll ride and keep the Marshall faith!

RobS · 07-02-2009, 04:13 AM

Viking,
I dont want you to swing an axe at me but I disagree. I have a JCM900 4100 that has master Vol's and with the vol at say 2 it's loud but once you get to 3.5 to 4 it really opens up and starts to sound different (more bottom end, growl beefier). take it past 6 and it hits you like a train (sounds even more different / better). Now at those levels it's way too loud at home but with the Powerbrake I can substantially lower the volume but retain the 'magic tone' that is achieved at the unbraked level. I took a gamble when getting the powerbrake for home use as there was nowhere I could hire one from and yes they are a lot of dough, but I'm glad I got it.
Now what do you recommend, I'm looking either a JVM410 head or a JCM800 2203 head reissue?? My concern with the JVM is all the electrogizmo's and the simplicity of the 800 is appealing.
Rob

5er driver · 07-02-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobS

.....with the Powerbrake I can substantially lower the volume but retain the 'magic tone' that is achieved at the unbraked level.

My SL-X's sweet spot is master @ 5-6. I use a Hot Plate to keep the sweet spot at a tolerable volume in a small place. I don't play at a whisper, those V-30s need to be pumpin' some air!

gtrman · 07-02-2009, 07:29 AM

Totally agree with Viking. When I have the Preamp cranked on my JCM800 2203 reissue it sounds as good as it needs to already on 1,5-2 on the master volume.
I only use a pedal to get a tad more sustain when doing solos.
I have had both the JVM410H and the 2203 reissue and in my opinion the 2203 kicks way more ASS !

PaoloJM · 07-02-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain2012

Do the JCM800's that are being produced by Marshall right now have diode clipping?

With the use of an attenuator to play at reasonable volumes, can I get a Slash tone from a Plexi? Basically, can a Plexi imitate a JCM800 or is there not enough gain in the Plexi?

Appetite For Destruction was recorded with a 1959T metal face, not quite a Plexi very very similar circuit. His was modded for an extra gain stage so you'd need a pedal for the stock model to get that tone.

fourdogslong · 07-02-2009, 11:01 AM

I don't get the attenuator thing honestly...

Why don't you just wear earplug if you can't handle the volume?
And if its for the neightbour then imo you should just get a smaller amp or rent a local to pratice in it...

I play my amp loud at home all the time and unless there's a full band it doesn't annoy the neightbour that much.

jcmjmp · 07-02-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourdogslong

I don't get the attenuator thing honestly...

Why don't you just wear earplug if you can't handle the volume?
And if its for the neightbour then imo you should just get a smaller amp or rent a local to pratice in it...

I play my amp loud at home all the time and unless there's a full band it doesn't annoy the neightbour that much.

Its not just about playing at home, and really, playing with earplugs in sucks, especially at home.

When playing live, there's a balance that must be kept between all the instruments on stage. The drums are what drives stage volume. Then, there's the vocals: You need to make sure that you don't drown out the vocalist. If you do, the band will sound like crap and he'll lose his voice before the end of the first set.

With a 2204/2203 JCM 800 Marshall, to get a bit of the Phase Inverter distortion and power tube compresion & breakup, I set set the master at approx 5. There's no way I can do that on any stage for venues of up to 600 people. That's where an attenuator helps. If you want the extra kick of setting the master volume high, you need a hotplate.

For home use, just use a pedal and forget about cranking up, or use a combination of attenuator and pedal. That's what I do.

I agree with American Viking where an attenuator on an amp like a DSL (or a jubilee) isn't really needed because of all the front end gain, much like a Mesa Boogie. Those amps weren't designed for being cranked loud to get good tone, they were designed to get good tone at low and moderate volumes.

PaoloJM · 07-02-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

Its not just about playing at home, and really, playing with earplugs in sucks, especially at home.

When playing live, there's a balance that must be kept between all the instruments on stage. The drums are what drives stage volume. Then, there's the vocals: You need to make sure that you don't drown out the vocalist. If you do, the band will sound like crap and he'll lose his voice before the end of the first set.

With a 2204/2203 JCM 800 Marshall, to get a bit of the Phase Inverter distortion and power tube compresion & breakup, I set set the master at approx 5. There's no way I can do that on any stage for venues of up to 600 people. That's where an attenuator helps. If you want the extra kick of setting the master volume high, you need a hotplate.

For home use, just use a pedal and forget about cranking up, or use a combination of attenuator and pedal. That's what I do.

I agree with American Viking where an attenuator on an amp like a DSL (or a jubilee) isn't really needed because of all the front end gain, much like a Mesa Boogie. Those amps weren't designed for being cranked loud to get good tone, they were designed to get good tone at low and moderate volumes.

I'd also agree with this. When used in this fashion, ie to knock a bit of the overall volume from 1959/2203 type amp, attenuators work great.
They sound aweful when trying to play at bedroom levels (this also because of speakers not moving) but to knock some the edge for a small/medium gig or rehearsal they are great.

GibsonSlash · 07-02-2009, 11:58 AM

I have both 2550 Jubilee and 2203 JCM800, and use my THD Hotplate differently.
When on the Jubilee, it's set max to -4db to get a good crunch on it, and play with its MV.

But when on the 2203, it won't tame it on -4db although it has a MV. Like most people say and what I experience JCM800 sounds best on 5 at MV, and it's freaking loud, that's when a Hotplate comes in.

American Viking · 07-02-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobS

Viking,

Now what do you recommend, I'm looking either a JVM410 head or a JCM800 2203 head reissue?? My concern with the JVM is all the electrogizmo's and the simplicity of the 800 is appealing.
Rob

I can't really say much about the JVM as I've never really gotten in front of one before. I haven't played the JCM800 ReIssue either but I can't imagine them being that different from the original.
I really dig the simplicity of any amp, to me, versatility means problematic and more junk compromising pure tone. That's what originally drove me to the 800's in the first place, they are the most simple of all the Marshall amps and if you have a good knack for tweaking things in an amp there are a million different tonal possibilities.
I suppose if you want more versatility the JVM would do it over the 800 but I can't really say much about the tone since I haven't heard the JVM in person. Let us know what you pick.

jcmjmp · 07-02-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Viking

I can't really say much about the JVM as I've never really gotten in front of one before. I haven't played the JCM800 ReIssue either but I can't imagine them being that different from the original.
I really dig the simplicity of any amp, to me, versatility means problematic and more junk compromising pure tone. That's what originally drove me to the 800's in the first place, they are the most simple of all the Marshall amps and if you have a good knack for tweaking things in an amp there are a million different tonal possibilities.
I suppose if you want more versatility the JVM would do it over the 800 but I can't really say much about the tone since I haven't heard the JVM in person. Let us know what you pick.

I like the simplicity of amps like the JCM800. The most complex amp I own is the DSL. A good pedal can add a whole lot of additional tones.

If you feel like you need a JVM, consider the JMP-1 preamp. Its a killer preamp that has all the flexibility you'll ever need and personally, I think its one of the better preamps out there.

fourdogslong · 07-02-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

Its not just about playing at home, and really, playing with earplugs in sucks, especially at home.

When playing live, there's a balance that must be kept between all the instruments on stage. The drums are what drives stage volume. Then, there's the vocals: You need to make sure that you don't drown out the vocalist. If you do, the band will sound like crap and he'll lose his voice before the end of the first set.

Yeah it makes sence for using live when the soundman gets pissed off if you crank your amp too much lol.

jcmjmp · 07-02-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourdogslong

Yeah it makes sence for using live when the soundman gets pissed off if you crank your amp too much lol.

Its not just the soundman. Its the band being able to sound good.

fourdogslong · 07-03-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

Its not just the soundman. Its the band being able to sound good.

I was just joking, you're right.

Richard_H · 07-04-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarznamps

I don't know much about actual designs and schematics - others can coment on that.

I think that the first diod clipping Marshall was the JCM 800 2205/2210. Those were also the first channel switching Marshalls I believe.

JCM 800 series: Models - 1959, 1986, 1987, 1992, 2203, 2204, 2205 & 2210

I don't think a plexi would sound like Slash unless you use some type of drive/distortion pedal.

My 1987 sounds WAY different than my Vintage Modern which is what Slash uses.

I saw Slash play earlier this week at the Quart Festival in norway (im also from norway) He used 2 Vintage Moderns and 4 cabs (2 slant and 2 straight cabs.) He had a couple of pedals onstage, i think he had one of those white Boss tuner pedals, and a Wah pedal (probably his signature wah) and one of those MXR/CAE-overdrive/boost pedals. One amp was set for cleans (when he played Fall to Pieces etc) and the other was set for dirty tones, with the CAE-overdive/boost pedal activated for lead stuff.. I dont know if he also had control over what amp to use, but he sure did control his stomp boxes, something that he doesn't do that often.

So if you want a tone that resembles Slash's current tone, i'd get a Vintage Modern, that sound will get you close, although i understand that he uses a combination of a VM, JCM800 and a 100w Jubilee for a blended dirty sound when he's recording in the studio with VR at least. (According to his twitter, he's only using a JCM800 for dirty/lead sounds on his solo album)

rokknrola · 07-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Viking

Of course they breathe better once you can get past the 3 mark on the master but power tube distortion is very minimal compared to preamp distortion. I used to defend this out put distortion a lot but when I see people getting amps like the DSL/TSL and buying attenuators it drives me crazy. Those things have so much front end gain that no one can tell that the power tubes are breaking up at all. I think a lot of people are wasting money, I don't see what is expected of an amp when you have to quiet them down to a whisper. On a JCM800 there isn't a whole lot of difference one you get past 3 or 4 on the master, it's damn near wide open at that point.
I think mine sound great from 2 on up. If it's too loud, I just turn it down (or put in earplugs and turn it up!)

A lot of people have a completely different opinion on this but I'm one of those guys that doesn't have to ever worry about being too loud. Whenever in the past it may have been an issue, I just turned my amp down, I don't expect the holy grail of tone to happen at the level of a whisper, it's just not going to happen, but to each his own.

Good luck on the rock and roll ride and keep the Marshall faith!

gotta disagree with you on this one brother. My 2204 sounds much more punchy/ full / balsy running the amp above the 2:00 position and attenuating than it does at a lower volume setting with no attenuation. And there is a noticeable distortion increase from the power section that sounds sweet. I get a similar result from my 2205. My silver jubilee however doesn't seem to benefit as much from the attenuation. go figure.

Ken · 07-08-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

I agree with American Viking where an attenuator on an amp like a DSL (or a jubilee) isn't really needed because of all the front end gain, much like a Mesa Boogie. Those amps weren't designed for being cranked loud to get good tone, they were designed to get good tone at low and moderate volumes.

I love the low volume tone of my DSL...but it really sounds even better loud! I don't have a power brake either, and agree it's useless on this amp.

Ken

American Viking · 07-08-2009, 05:08 PM

what this all really boils down to, is this...

If you are thinking about buying an amp and you have a super hard-on for an attenuator and you're going to buy one no matter what amp you get, go for the gold, buy a non-master volume.

07-01-2009, 08:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
mountain2012 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 25	JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator Do the JCM800's that are being produced by Marshall right now have diode clipping? With the use of an attenuator to play at reasonable volumes, can I get a Slash tone from a Plexi? Basically, can a Plexi imitate a JCM800 or is there not enough gain in the Plexi?

07-01-2009, 12:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
tarznamps Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Music City, USA Posts: 213	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator I don't know much about actual designs and schematics - others can coment on that. I think that the first diod clipping Marshall was the JCM 800 2205/2210. Those were also the first channel switching Marshalls I believe. JCM 800 series: Models - 1959, 1986, 1987, 1992, 2203, 2204, 2205 & 2210 I don't think a plexi would sound like Slash unless you use some type of drive/distortion pedal. My 1987 sounds WAY different than my Vintage Modern which is what Slash uses. __________________ Tarz-N-Amps Marshall Heads - JTM 45, Haze 15, JCM 2000 DSL 100, JCM 800 2205, JCM 900 4100, Vintage Modern 2466, 1987x Plexi Marshall Cabs - 1960BX, 1960A, 1960AV, 1965B, 425A, 1936, Haze A&B Marshall Combos - JMP 4140 Club & Country, DSL 401, JTM 615, JCM 900 4501

07-01-2009, 06:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
American Viking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: RICHMOND, VIRGINIA Posts: 1,510	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator if you get a JCM800 you won't need an attenuator. It has a master volume already. The reissues do not have any diode clipping circuits and a plexi can sound and get as dirty as an 800 but you would need to boost it just a tad with a tube screamer type pedal or like a Boss SD-1. A very light overdrive is all you need to make those puppies scream. If you get a plexi then maybe an attenuator would suit you but there's no point in having one on an amp with master volume. __________________ -I'd rather be a good liver than have one...

07-01-2009, 11:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
American Viking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: RICHMOND, VIRGINIA Posts: 1,510	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator Of course they breathe better once you can get past the 3 mark on the master but power tube distortion is very minimal compared to preamp distortion. I used to defend this out put distortion a lot but when I see people getting amps like the DSL/TSL and buying attenuators it drives me crazy. Those things have so much front end gain that no one can tell that the power tubes are breaking up at all. I think a lot of people are wasting money, I don't see what is expected of an amp when you have to quiet them down to a whisper. On a JCM800 there isn't a whole lot of difference one you get past 3 or 4 on the master, it's damn near wide open at that point. I think mine sound great from 2 on up. If it's too loud, I just turn it down (or put in earplugs and turn it up!) A lot of people have a completely different opinion on this but I'm one of those guys that doesn't have to ever worry about being too loud. Whenever in the past it may have been an issue, I just turned my amp down, I don't expect the holy grail of tone to happen at the level of a whisper, it's just not going to happen, but to each his own. Good luck on the rock and roll ride and keep the Marshall faith! __________________ -I'd rather be a good liver than have one...

07-02-2009, 04:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
RobS Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne - Australia Posts: 144	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator Viking, I dont want you to swing an axe at me but I disagree. I have a JCM900 4100 that has master Vol's and with the vol at say 2 it's loud but once you get to 3.5 to 4 it really opens up and starts to sound different (more bottom end, growl beefier). take it past 6 and it hits you like a train (sounds even more different / better). Now at those levels it's way too loud at home but with the Powerbrake I can substantially lower the volume but retain the 'magic tone' that is achieved at the unbraked level. I took a gamble when getting the powerbrake for home use as there was nowhere I could hire one from and yes they are a lot of dough, but I'm glad I got it. Now what do you recommend, I'm looking either a JVM410 head or a JCM800 2203 head reissue?? My concern with the JVM is all the electrogizmo's and the simplicity of the 800 is appealing. Rob __________________ JCM900 4100 DR + 1960 A + B + Powerbrake Ibanez PS10CL Paul Stanley Custom Gibson LP Traditional Epiphone LP Custom No pedals.........

07-02-2009, 07:29 AM	#9 (permalink)
gtrman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 219	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator Totally agree with Viking. When I have the Preamp cranked on my JCM800 2203 reissue it sounds as good as it needs to already on 1,5-2 on the master volume. I only use a pedal to get a tad more sustain when doing solos. I have had both the JVM410H and the 2203 reissue and in my opinion the 2203 kicks way more ASS ! __________________ JCM800 2203X - 1923 85th Anniversary - JCM900 SL-X - VM 2266 - 425A - 6100LM - 6101LM - Silver Jubilee 2553 - Silver Jubilee 2554 - 1960A - 1960B - 1960Slash - 1922 - 1936V

07-02-2009, 11:01 AM	#11 (permalink)
fourdogslong Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 48	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator I don't get the attenuator thing honestly... Why don't you just wear earplug if you can't handle the volume? And if its for the neightbour then imo you should just get a smaller amp or rent a local to pratice in it... I play my amp loud at home all the time and unless there's a full band it doesn't annoy the neightbour that much.

07-08-2009, 05:08 PM	#23 (permalink)
American Viking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: RICHMOND, VIRGINIA Posts: 1,510	Re: JCM800, Diode Clipping, Attenuator what this all really boils down to, is this... If you are thinking about buying an amp and you have a super hard-on for an attenuator and you're going to buy one no matter what amp you get, go for the gold, buy a non-master volume. __________________ -I'd rather be a good liver than have one...

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