The End Of Tube Guitar Amps!

MartyStrat54 · 04-15-2009, 09:38 PM

I was searching the web doing some research on guitar tubes. I came across this article and it spells out the end to the tube guitar amp. It is sort of a long article, but it does make you wonder. It won't affect me too much, because I'm in my fifties, but if you are starting out and are under twenty, it should be something to read.

David Lamkins - Guitarist - The future of tubes?

It's not going to happen overnight, but according to this article, it will happen.

Marty

DragonSarc · 04-15-2009, 10:00 PM

it will probably take years... id say more than 50 yrs what you guys think?

steelhorse · 04-15-2009, 10:06 PM

It's just an opinion. When the public demands only SS amps and the amp makers agree to it, then I'll worry about it.

I don't see it happening for quite some time though and if and when it does I'll be stocked up to sell to the highest bidders who find out what a mistake it all was to go all SS or digital.

tbwrench · 04-15-2009, 10:34 PM

the author of the article states he was blown away by a first act amp. his credibility also blown away in my book. what kind of expert is blown away by a 99.00 amp????

there are a lot of tube amps out there and will be for a long long time.

peace, tbw.

mystic fred · 04-16-2009, 02:11 AM

Valve amps will never go away - as long as musicians demand quality sounds there will always be a manufacturer willing to meet the demand, though saying that Marshall themselves seem to have been trying to get valve sounds from solid state amps all these years, with increasing success.

felim · 04-16-2009, 03:28 AM

I have no doubt that solid state/digital amps will someday match the sound of valve amps but IMO they'll never match the feel.

janarn · 04-16-2009, 04:27 AM

That's not news. Every expert said the same thing 20 years ago.
The ss amps were so good that there was no need for tube amps.
Then the speaker simulators came on the marked.
No need to use an amp at all, just stomp boxes, and straight into the PA.
Then the digital amp simulators. Better sound than an amp, and almost nothing
to carry around.
What happened?
I guess todays marked have more tube amps than ever.

zampraz · 04-16-2009, 06:37 AM

I hope not because I can imagine tube amps becoming rare vintage items and becoming very expensive like vintage guitars...

But I think tube amps will stay

bloosman1 · 04-16-2009, 07:30 AM

Adapt and overcome.... don't be afraid of the future, we are the future.

MKB · 04-16-2009, 11:27 AM

Note that in all the modeling amps, software and solid state amps, classic tube amps are referenced as tonal benchmarks. If these classic amps remain classic, there will always be a desire and market for the real thing. Guitarists for the most part are the most backward thinking and stubborn consumers out there, generally unwilling to try new things. If it ain't like a Les Paul or Strat or Marshall or Super Reverb or Bassman, it will have a hard time getting heard, no matter how good it is.

As long as electric guitars are a dominant force in popular music, I think tubes will be available at affordable prices. Mainly for two reasons: first, there are more and more tube amps being sold so there will be a replacement market. As long as tubes are available at decent prices, tube amps will be made and sold. Secondly, if I'm not mistaken several of the overseas tube factories are owned by music related companies anyhow (such as Mike Matthews/Electro-Harmonix and Sovtek). I think their primary market is tube amps and effects for music, not Chinese or Russian warfare applications. But we can thank all the ICBM's pointed at us from the USSR and China for keeping tube manufacturing alive until the resurgence of tube guitar amps in the eighties and nineties.

The biggest worry I'd think is if the guitar fades from use in popular music. Can the electric guitar/amp become the next crumhorn or sackbut? Or like Hawaiian steel guitars in the twenties? Or the tenor banjo? You can still get any of these, but not in your local music store in most cases. They used to be wildly popular, but faded from use eventually. If the electric guitar goes that way, being replaced by say synths like in house music or rap, the market for the amps goes away and so does the tubes.

Concerning tubes in high end stereo equipment, these have already been replaced by newer technology of the same or better quality (such as Krell or McIntosh power amps, and Mark Levinson transistor preamps). But it now is easier and cheaper to get extreme high fidelity and musicality using tubes than it is with transistors in my experience. This part of the tube sector, although the users will pay a lot for tubes, are a small portion of the tube users today.

zslane · 04-16-2009, 12:55 PM

As long as playing rock 'n roll with an electric guitar will get you laid, the instrument will stick around.

Tube vs. non-tube, well, that's becoming more about fashion and less about tonal distinctions every year as the digital algorithms and sampling methods improve. If/when it reaches the point where nobody can hear the difference, the only thing that will continue to matter is how the gear looks (i.e., on stage)...hence, "fashion".

Except for the die-hard traditionalists who believe that things like the color of the wires used in manufacturing the amp makes a difference you can hear. Those wackos will want their hand-wired, PTP tube amps till the day they die.

I love the look, sound, and feel of Marshall tube amps, but the day they make a digital amp that looks and sounds exactly the same as a classic Plexi, at half the cost, and twice the reliability, I am so there...

poeman33 · 04-16-2009, 01:20 PM

I heard the same thing 30 years ago. I don't see it happening now anymore than it did then. They'll probably just come out with a Vintage Vintage Modern...or a DSL Classic Reissue or something in thirty years. No one was supposed to be listening to singers or actual playing musicians either by the predictions...it was all going to be computerized.

Ken · 04-16-2009, 01:50 PM

The concept of a modeling amp has merit: a sound can be computer analyzed and reproduced. It's just a sine wave after all, with a specific proportion of harmonics depending on the tone and distortion.

The real world however is a little more complicated. While sounding good in general, modleing amps lack the active dynamics of what a tube amp will do when you play loud, soft, full chords, lead lines, two string bends, etc. In theory, computers can account for all the nuances, but the state of the technology to both analyze and then reproduce the harmonic interactions of a tube amp in action is not perfected. At least, I am not aware of a modeling amp that can be perfect.

That is not to say that in the future a modeling amp won't be as good or even better than a top line tube amp on paper. Still, while a modern Ferrari will run rings around a 308, guess which car is more fun to drive?

Ken

MartyStrat54 · 04-16-2009, 02:22 PM

Fantastic responses to the question at hand. One thing that stuck in my mind was the following:

"Guitar amps have never been a driving factor in technology. They came along for the ride."

I guess this statement is true. Tube amps were made and then someone said, "I can make a pickup for my guitar and rig the (consumer) amp to pick it up." Later, when certain people saw what the musicians were doing, they started up their plants and made Fender, Vox and later, Marshall. The technology was aimed at the electronic consumer, not the guitar player. In reality, the amps we are using right now do not vary much at all from what was made in the late forties. We still use either a cathode or fixed bias amp and if you take all the modern features off (which are solid state and/or digital), you basically have a 1949 amplifier. During the peak of tube amp design and building, no one dared stray from the norm in design and every amp was in many ways a clone of what RCA was making.

I do think that guitarist made a huge impact in speaker development, but I guess as far as amplifier innovations, we are just using what is technically a 50 year old amp with pre and post gain controls.

The author keeps stating impending doom, but then he follows it up with terms like, "in the next two decades." The only thing that has caught my attention is that Ei (one of the premier tube makers) filed bankruptcy a while back and is out of business. They were one of my favorite sources for tubes. Winged C sold off part of its holdings to New Sensor. New Sensor is getting a monopoly on the tube making business and before long, they will be able to raise their prices and we will have to eat it. JJ will be their only competition, because I don't see Winged C staying in business. The Chinese tube maker, Shuguang, is starting to become a major player as well.

In closing, the solid state craze didn't kill tube amp production back in the late 60's and early 70's. However, more and more of today's players are using modern solid state/digital amps. Will the present innovative technologies that are available put the dagger in the tube amp market? Most of you say it won't happen for at least twenty years. That would be 2029. I think something huge will happen in consumer electronics within the next ten years that will have an impact on guitar amps.

Just my opinion. Marty

riffdrive · 04-16-2009, 02:27 PM

There's been several quasi-scientific studies that have shown that even professional recording engineers with 30 years experience and multiple grammy-winning songs and albums to their credit can't tell the difference between a modeled amp and the real one most of the time.

That being said, like Ken stated above, the tube amp "feel" will probably never be duplicated, therefore among guitarists, tube amps will always be popular.

I don't put much stock into what the talking heads say. These are the same idiots who, for the last 50 years or so, have been promising that flying cars and video phones are right around the corner.

MKB · 04-16-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riffdrive

There's been several quasi-scientific studies that have shown that even professional recording engineers with 30 years experience and multiple grammy-winning songs and albums to their credit can't tell the difference between a modeled amp and the real one most of the time.

I read an article somewhere where a big-time grammy winning engineer said the best Tweed Deluxe he ever heard was a Line 6 Vetta. And engineer/musicians like Pete Anderson (with Dwight Yoakam) almost always records with guitar amp software. Modelers have long gone past the point of being unrecognizable as such to an audience. Weezer only uses their amps for stage volume, the PA feed is from a Line 6 rackmount. But until a modeler feels and responds like a tube amp to the player, they won't replace tube amps. Perhaps that day will come though.

I'm firmly of the opinion that most electric guitar and amp technology is simply a happy accident. How did Ted McCarty know that his humbucker would become the best sounding pickup you can get to this day? And what lamp did Leo Fender rub to make the Strat so perfect? How much thought did Ken Bran put into the design of the Bluesbreaker combo to make it so great? Did he have a primo Les Paul to tune it with so Eric Clapton would sound so good? Where did all this magic come from?

Simple: the defining artists of our time took the standard equipment they had available and made it timeless with their music. Maybe if we guitarists would pull our heads out of the past we'd see there are even better tones out there with forward thinking modern equipment and software. Maybe the modelers and software would be even better if designers didn't try to make it copy the old amps, but strive for unique new tones.

Now I'm off to practice with my ash Tele and 50W Marshall stack...

MonstersOfTheMidway · 04-16-2009, 06:40 PM

Sorry, but it's a pure crap piece of writing. Highly opinionated, but maybe a bit biased in some parts as well. I see speculation in areas where solid research is needed in this writing. I love my solid state 1989 Fender Pro 185 and would never sell it for the anything, but amps will live on for many of the same reasons that they are popular today. When I read articles and essays, I always search for claims people make and then ask myself if it is supported with facts that can be verified.

zslane · 04-16-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKB

But until a modeler feels and responds like a tube amp to the player, they won't replace tube amps. Perhaps that day will come though.
:
Maybe if we guitarists would pull our heads out of the past we'd see there are even better tones out there with forward thinking modern equipment and software. Maybe the modelers and software would be even better if designers didn't try to make it copy the old amps, but strive for unique new tones.

You won't get far with the vintage fetishists with this line of thinking. To them, that "feel and response" you talk about which tube amps are magically imbued with is so sacred that there will never come a day when digital technology will be a practical replacement. And it has nothing to do with rational, empirical analysis, and everything to do with psychology.

It will be the new (perhaps current?) generation of young guitarists who don't have a vintage bias who will embrace digital completely. Their playing isn't so heavily informed by a pre-occupation with "tube warmth" and all the other fuzzy adjectives that saturate the thinking (and consequently the playing) of the old-timers.

MartyStrat54 · 04-16-2009, 07:27 PM

I'm not as poetic in my verse as zslane, but I think he meant, "If it ain't got tubes, it better have boobs!"

You bring up a great point zslane. I'm 54 and I'll be damned if you ever see me without a tube amp. That's all I feel comfortable with playing. I know the tube and the tube knows me. Some kind of ZEN thing happening.

On the other hand, some percentage of the younger guys don't really have a dedicated preference to what they play. If a gimmick comes along it will hook them and the gimmick could be a (cheap) digital guitar amp. I have pride in the younger players on this forum who bust their ass to make the money to get an 800 or a VM or a DSL. Some of the young guys are still programed to think that a Marshall is the only way to go. I say that isn't such a bad thought to be thinking. As long as there are crowds (with pretty girls) and cold beer, there will be a need for a guitarist onstage with his amp...his Marshall.

Marty

"Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird!"

Ken · 04-17-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zslane

It will be the new (perhaps current?) generation of young guitarists who don't have a vintage bias who will embrace digital completely. .

I agree. I'm 49 and I don't sell CD's, so I use what I like, and I like Marshall tube amps. Yes, I have an emotional bias but I like my emotional bias!

A 19 year old virtuoso OTOH will be completely different than me...he may embrace digital technology and turn it into it's own universe of new sounds, much as Jimi Hendrix showed the world an electric guitar was not just a louder acoustic guitar. It's an instrument all to itself.

Ken

jcmjmp · 04-17-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Winged C sold off part of its holdings to New Sensor.
Just my opinion. Marty

Actually, you've got that wrong. New Sensor stole the "Svetlana" name for the North American market. Svetlana Electron Devices (SED) tried to keep their name but they ended up selling the rights.

The Svetlana EL-34 was renamed the SED =C= EL-34 and New Sensor took the old Svetlana name, logo etc and built a cheaper product, selling them on the reputation that SED had built up.

Stereophile: Svetlana vs. Svetlana

jcmjmp · 04-17-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zslane

You won't get far with the vintage fetishists with this line of thinking. To them, that "feel and response" you talk about which tube amps are magically imbued with is so sacred that there will never come a day when digital technology will be a practical replacement. And it has nothing to do with rational, empirical analysis, and everything to do with psychology.

It will be the new (perhaps current?) generation of young guitarists who don't have a vintage bias who will embrace digital completely. Their playing isn't so heavily informed by a pre-occupation with "tube warmth" and all the other fuzzy adjectives that saturate the thinking (and consequently the playing) of the old-timers.

I'm a huge fan of trying new things. When the pods came out I had to have one. They were fun but didn't work well for band / live work. When the LINE6 rack gear came out, I tried that too and again, was dissapointed. Not because it wasn't tube... because the tracking wasn't there, neither was the dynamic response. I would much prefer a Peavey transtube to most the the line6 stuff. If the modelers were soooo good, people would use them more.

An amp is complex and recreating a digital model is not really practical because the digital model is a snapshot of the amp operating in a pre-determined set of settings. A 2203 doesn't sound the same at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the master volume. You'd need a different model for each setting. Then you get into the tone stack... power tubes, preamp tubes, OT....

Vintager12 · 04-17-2009, 11:13 AM

It's just an opinion nothing to be, afraid off.

luekemeyer · 04-17-2009, 11:16 AM

A Tube is Tube. That is all I have to say.

MartyStrat54 · 04-17-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

Actually, you've got that wrong. New Sensor stole the "Svetlana" name for the North American market. Svetlana Electron Devices (SED) tried to keep their name but they ended up selling the rights.

The Svetlana EL-34 was renamed the SED =C= EL-34 and New Sensor took the old Svetlana name, logo etc and built a cheaper product, selling them on the reputation that SED had built up.

Stereophile: Svetlana vs. Svetlana

I stand corrected, but you proved my point I was making that New Sensor is a snake in the grass. Pretty soon they will have almost all of the marbles. Let us hope that JJ hangs in there.

Marty

steelhorse · 04-17-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

I'm a huge fan of trying new things. When the pods came out I had to have one. They were fun but didn't work well for band / live work. When the LINE6 rack gear came out, I tried that too and again, was dissapointed. Not because it wasn't tube... because the tracking wasn't there, neither was the dynamic response. I would much prefer a Peavey transtube to most the the line6 stuff. If the modelers were soooo good, people would use them more.

An amp is complex and recreating a digital model is not really practical because the digital model is a snapshot of the amp operating in a pre-determined set of settings. A 2203 doesn't sound the same at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the master volume. You'd need a different model for each setting. Then you get into the tone stack... power tubes, preamp tubes, OT....

Amen.

zslane · 04-17-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

An amp is complex and recreating a digital model is not really practical because the digital model is a snapshot of the amp operating in a pre-determined set of settings. A 2203 doesn't sound the same at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the master volume. You'd need a different model for each setting. Then you get into the tone stack... power tubes, preamp tubes, OT....

You are correct in that the physics of tube amp phenomena are highly complex, but computers are good a complex computation. Sampling is only one method of capturing and reproducing sounds. Modeling algorithms continue to improve, while raw computing power and digital storage gets faster, larger, and cheaper. The only thing preventing more authentic digital reproduction of tube amp tone is research time and cost. But as someone who has spent a lot of time in the world of computing, I assure you that the problem is not intractable.

I would think we've all been around long enough to have seen the stunningly rapid pace of technological advancement anywhere computing is involved, and to realize that what we have today is but a faint glimmer of what we're likely to achieve in the future.

mmorse · 04-27-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zslane

You are correct in that the physics of tube amp phenomena are highly complex, but computers are good a complex computation. Sampling is only one method of capturing and reproducing sounds. Modeling algorithms continue to improve, while raw computing power and digital storage gets faster, larger, and cheaper. The only thing preventing more authentic digital reproduction of tube amp tone is research time and cost. But as someone who has spent a lot of time in the world of computing, I assure you that the problem is not intractable.

I would think we've all been around long enough to have seen the stunningly rapid pace of technological advancement anywhere computing is involved, and to realize that what we have today is but a faint glimmer of what we're likely to achieve in the future.

You are so right. When ss amps first came out in highend audio, they sounded like garbage compared to tube amps. Now they are every bit as good. Cds sounded like crap compared to vinyl when they first came out. Not so anymore. Listen to some of the clips for the AxeFx to see that it's only matter of time.

MartyStrat54 · 04-27-2009, 05:48 PM

Well I'm taking the time to say I am checking in on this post and reading all of the responses. I must say there are some damn good ones. You guys amaze me in regard to your knowledge of digital modeling and other technologies.

Yes, I remember when they first made CD's. The mastering EQ was way off and horns would kill you. They were horrible. Now CD's are sort of like the 45 record. It will soon be entirely replaced by a better format.

The same reasoning can be applied to the tube amp. There are technologies out there getting better and cheaper all of the time in an attempt to mimic the most holy tube amp. As the old saying goes, "It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when."

Marty

rockbutt · 04-27-2009, 06:12 PM

All of the young aspiring guitar plaayers between 17 and 23 years old, including my 19 year old son all respond that their aim is to buy tube amps as soon as they earn for it and sell off their digital equipment and solid state amps. They all seem to prefer tubes instead of modeling amps.

04-15-2009, 09:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,583	The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! I was searching the web doing some research on guitar tubes. I came across this article and it spells out the end to the tube guitar amp. It is sort of a long article, but it does make you wonder. It won't affect me too much, because I'm in my fifties, but if you are starting out and are under twenty, it should be something to read. David Lamkins - Guitarist - The future of tubes? It's not going to happen overnight, but according to this article, it will happen. Marty

04-15-2009, 10:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
DragonSarc Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Leandro, CA Posts: 495	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! it will probably take years... id say more than 50 yrs what you guys think? __________________ JVM410H w/ 1960 Vintage A & 1960 Lead B Valvestate 2000 AVT 100 W/ JJ tesla Hi-Gain Preamp Gibson LP studio faded mahagony w/ Burstbuckers Pro V MIJ ESP Edwards Les Paul w/ Duncan JB and 59's Fender American Strat w/ Noiseless Vintage pups LTD EC-500 Jackson Stealth Pro MIJ

04-15-2009, 10:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,888	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! It's just an opinion. When the public demands only SS amps and the amp makers agree to it, then I'll worry about it. I don't see it happening for quite some time though and if and when it does I'll be stocked up to sell to the highest bidders who find out what a mistake it all was to go all SS or digital. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-15-2009, 10:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
tbwrench Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: wisconsin Posts: 61	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! the author of the article states he was blown away by a first act amp. his credibility also blown away in my book. what kind of expert is blown away by a 99.00 amp???? there are a lot of tube amps out there and will be for a long long time. peace, tbw.

04-16-2009, 02:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
mystic fred Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: London UK Posts: 44	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Valve amps will never go away - as long as musicians demand quality sounds there will always be a manufacturer willing to meet the demand, though saying that Marshall themselves seem to have been trying to get valve sounds from solid state amps all these years, with increasing success.

04-16-2009, 03:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
felim Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 65	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! I have no doubt that solid state/digital amps will someday match the sound of valve amps but IMO they'll never match the feel.

04-16-2009, 04:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
janarn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 408	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! That's not news. Every expert said the same thing 20 years ago. The ss amps were so good that there was no need for tube amps. Then the speaker simulators came on the marked. No need to use an amp at all, just stomp boxes, and straight into the PA. Then the digital amp simulators. Better sound than an amp, and almost nothing to carry around. What happened? I guess todays marked have more tube amps than ever. Last edited by janarn; 04-16-2009 at 07:02 AM.

04-16-2009, 06:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
zampraz Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 37	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! I hope not because I can imagine tube amps becoming rare vintage items and becoming very expensive like vintage guitars... But I think tube amps will stay

04-16-2009, 07:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
bloosman1 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 155	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Adapt and overcome.... don't be afraid of the future, we are the future. __________________ Amps: JCM 2000 DSL 100 1960 A Cab. Fender Hot Rod Deville Fender Pro Jr. Pignose Axes: Fender 2009 American Standard Strat Fender 81 modified strat Fender 98 mim modified strat Fender 04 Highway 1 strat Gibson Swamp Ash Les Paul Studio Gibson Black Les Paul Studio Gibson SG Gothic Taylor Accoustic Washburn Accoustic Dobro 'M' Series Effects: Everything from a PODxt to analog...too darn many

04-16-2009, 11:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
MKB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 203	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Note that in all the modeling amps, software and solid state amps, classic tube amps are referenced as tonal benchmarks. If these classic amps remain classic, there will always be a desire and market for the real thing. Guitarists for the most part are the most backward thinking and stubborn consumers out there, generally unwilling to try new things. If it ain't like a Les Paul or Strat or Marshall or Super Reverb or Bassman, it will have a hard time getting heard, no matter how good it is. As long as electric guitars are a dominant force in popular music, I think tubes will be available at affordable prices. Mainly for two reasons: first, there are more and more tube amps being sold so there will be a replacement market. As long as tubes are available at decent prices, tube amps will be made and sold. Secondly, if I'm not mistaken several of the overseas tube factories are owned by music related companies anyhow (such as Mike Matthews/Electro-Harmonix and Sovtek). I think their primary market is tube amps and effects for music, not Chinese or Russian warfare applications. But we can thank all the ICBM's pointed at us from the USSR and China for keeping tube manufacturing alive until the resurgence of tube guitar amps in the eighties and nineties. The biggest worry I'd think is if the guitar fades from use in popular music. Can the electric guitar/amp become the next crumhorn or sackbut? Or like Hawaiian steel guitars in the twenties? Or the tenor banjo? You can still get any of these, but not in your local music store in most cases. They used to be wildly popular, but faded from use eventually. If the electric guitar goes that way, being replaced by say synths like in house music or rap, the market for the amps goes away and so does the tubes. Concerning tubes in high end stereo equipment, these have already been replaced by newer technology of the same or better quality (such as Krell or McIntosh power amps, and Mark Levinson transistor preamps). But it now is easier and cheaper to get extreme high fidelity and musicality using tubes than it is with transistors in my experience. This part of the tube sector, although the users will pay a lot for tubes, are a small portion of the tube users today.

04-16-2009, 12:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
zslane Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 286	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! As long as playing rock 'n roll with an electric guitar will get you laid, the instrument will stick around. Tube vs. non-tube, well, that's becoming more about fashion and less about tonal distinctions every year as the digital algorithms and sampling methods improve. If/when it reaches the point where nobody can hear the difference, the only thing that will continue to matter is how the gear looks (i.e., on stage)...hence, "fashion". Except for the die-hard traditionalists who believe that things like the color of the wires used in manufacturing the amp makes a difference you can hear. Those wackos will want their hand-wired, PTP tube amps till the day they die. I love the look, sound, and feel of Marshall tube amps, but the day they make a digital amp that looks and sounds exactly the same as a classic Plexi, at half the cost, and twice the reliability, I am so there... __________________ JCM2000 DSL-100 head + 1960A 4x12 cab 30th Anniversary 6100 head JCM2000 DSL-401 combo Les Paul Standards ('96 Goldtop, '99 Ebony, '03 Honeyburst) Les Paul Custom ('04 Alpine White w/ gold hardware) Les Paul Supreme ('07 Trans Black w/ black hardware)

04-16-2009, 01:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
poeman33 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 432	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! I heard the same thing 30 years ago. I don't see it happening now anymore than it did then. They'll probably just come out with a Vintage Vintage Modern...or a DSL Classic Reissue or something in thirty years. No one was supposed to be listening to singers or actual playing musicians either by the predictions...it was all going to be computerized. __________________ --------------- Marshall JCM2000 DSL50 Avatar Vintage 4x12 cab Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat Ash body

04-16-2009, 01:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ken Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington Heights, IL Posts: 607	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! The concept of a modeling amp has merit: a sound can be computer analyzed and reproduced. It's just a sine wave after all, with a specific proportion of harmonics depending on the tone and distortion. The real world however is a little more complicated. While sounding good in general, modleing amps lack the active dynamics of what a tube amp will do when you play loud, soft, full chords, lead lines, two string bends, etc. In theory, computers can account for all the nuances, but the state of the technology to both analyze and then reproduce the harmonic interactions of a tube amp in action is not perfected. At least, I am not aware of a modeling amp that can be perfect. That is not to say that in the future a modeling amp won't be as good or even better than a top line tube amp on paper. Still, while a modern Ferrari will run rings around a 308, guess which car is more fun to drive? Ken

04-16-2009, 02:22 PM	#14 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,583	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Fantastic responses to the question at hand. One thing that stuck in my mind was the following: "Guitar amps have never been a driving factor in technology. They came along for the ride." I guess this statement is true. Tube amps were made and then someone said, "I can make a pickup for my guitar and rig the (consumer) amp to pick it up." Later, when certain people saw what the musicians were doing, they started up their plants and made Fender, Vox and later, Marshall. The technology was aimed at the electronic consumer, not the guitar player. In reality, the amps we are using right now do not vary much at all from what was made in the late forties. We still use either a cathode or fixed bias amp and if you take all the modern features off (which are solid state and/or digital), you basically have a 1949 amplifier. During the peak of tube amp design and building, no one dared stray from the norm in design and every amp was in many ways a clone of what RCA was making. I do think that guitarist made a huge impact in speaker development, but I guess as far as amplifier innovations, we are just using what is technically a 50 year old amp with pre and post gain controls. The author keeps stating impending doom, but then he follows it up with terms like, "in the next two decades." The only thing that has caught my attention is that Ei (one of the premier tube makers) filed bankruptcy a while back and is out of business. They were one of my favorite sources for tubes. Winged C sold off part of its holdings to New Sensor. New Sensor is getting a monopoly on the tube making business and before long, they will be able to raise their prices and we will have to eat it. JJ will be their only competition, because I don't see Winged C staying in business. The Chinese tube maker, Shuguang, is starting to become a major player as well. In closing, the solid state craze didn't kill tube amp production back in the late 60's and early 70's. However, more and more of today's players are using modern solid state/digital amps. Will the present innovative technologies that are available put the dagger in the tube amp market? Most of you say it won't happen for at least twenty years. That would be 2029. I think something huge will happen in consumer electronics within the next ten years that will have an impact on guitar amps. Just my opinion. Marty

04-16-2009, 02:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
riffdrive Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: north Georgia mountains Posts: 204	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! There's been several quasi-scientific studies that have shown that even professional recording engineers with 30 years experience and multiple grammy-winning songs and albums to their credit can't tell the difference between a modeled amp and the real one most of the time. That being said, like Ken stated above, the tube amp "feel" will probably never be duplicated, therefore among guitarists, tube amps will always be popular. I don't put much stock into what the talking heads say. These are the same idiots who, for the last 50 years or so, have been promising that flying cars and video phones are right around the corner. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------- 2001 Marshall DSL 50 (JJ ECC83, Svetlana EL34) 2005 Marshall Mode Four Avatar 2x12 (1x Vintage 30, 1x Greenback) Peavey 4x12 (Sheffield 1290) Taylor Standard Solidbody Ibanez RG2EX2

04-17-2009, 11:16 AM	#24 (permalink)
luekemeyer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Calif Posts: 439	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! A Tube is Tube. That is all I have to say. __________________ --------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/Earnhardt12345 JCM 2000 DSL 100 & MC412 Cab Crate Blue Voodoo BV-120H and 4x12 Cab ADA 1/2 Cab POD X3 Live VOX ToneLab Tube Screamer Flanger Phase 90 Chorus Crybaby Wah Epi Les Paul Plus Top - Dimarzio Super Distortions Dean Dime Shadow ML - Dimebucker bridge Ibanez RG - Van Halen II paint job - Dimebucker Kramer Aerostar Fender Squire Strat(From Corona Plant employee sale)

04-16-2009, 06:40 PM	#17 (permalink)
MonstersOfTheMidway Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: a chair Posts: 288	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Sorry, but it's a pure crap piece of writing. Highly opinionated, but maybe a bit biased in some parts as well. I see speculation in areas where solid research is needed in this writing. I love my solid state 1989 Fender Pro 185 and would never sell it for the anything, but amps will live on for many of the same reasons that they are popular today. When I read articles and essays, I always search for claims people make and then ask myself if it is supported with facts that can be verified.

04-16-2009, 07:27 PM	#19 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,583	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! I'm not as poetic in my verse as zslane, but I think he meant, "If it ain't got tubes, it better have boobs!" You bring up a great point zslane. I'm 54 and I'll be damned if you ever see me without a tube amp. That's all I feel comfortable with playing. I know the tube and the tube knows me. Some kind of ZEN thing happening. On the other hand, some percentage of the younger guys don't really have a dedicated preference to what they play. If a gimmick comes along it will hook them and the gimmick could be a (cheap) digital guitar amp. I have pride in the younger players on this forum who bust their ass to make the money to get an 800 or a VM or a DSL. Some of the young guys are still programed to think that a Marshall is the only way to go. I say that isn't such a bad thought to be thinking. As long as there are crowds (with pretty girls) and cold beer, there will be a need for a guitarist onstage with his amp...his Marshall. Marty "Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird!"

04-17-2009, 11:13 AM	#23 (permalink)
Vintager12 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 693	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! It's just an opinion nothing to be, afraid off. __________________ The Emperor of the Vintage Modern.

04-27-2009, 05:48 PM	#29 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,583	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! Well I'm taking the time to say I am checking in on this post and reading all of the responses. I must say there are some damn good ones. You guys amaze me in regard to your knowledge of digital modeling and other technologies. Yes, I remember when they first made CD's. The mastering EQ was way off and horns would kill you. They were horrible. Now CD's are sort of like the 45 record. It will soon be entirely replaced by a better format. The same reasoning can be applied to the tube amp. There are technologies out there getting better and cheaper all of the time in an attempt to mimic the most holy tube amp. As the old saying goes, "It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when." Marty

04-27-2009, 06:12 PM	#30 (permalink)
rockbutt Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: San José, Costa Rica Posts: 24	Re: The End Of Tube Guitar Amps! All of the young aspiring guitar plaayers between 17 and 23 years old, including my 19 year old son all respond that their aim is to buy tube amps as soon as they earn for it and sell off their digital equipment and solid state amps. They all seem to prefer tubes instead of modeling amps.

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