Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Page 4

MartyStrat54 · 04-14-2009, 08:29 PM

Well here is an update. I won the RCA/Mullard 12AX7 and a NOS Raytheon Black Plate 12AX7. Then when Reed's tube came up to bid on, I fell asleep and didn't get to bid on any of them. That was like sucking the hind tit on a boar hog...useless. Anyway, I made up for it as I won a lot of six Mullards for $69. That was a huge win for six Mullards for well under $100. I should get the first two soon, like tomorrow and I will try to do an A/B test in my TSL122.

On a side note. Here we are rolling tubes for that special sound. However, some people go all out, even more so than me. They put in the USA NOS preamp tubes and they have Telefunken EL34's for power, but they do something else that runs more than $700 (parts only). They replace the output and power transformers and they also install a choke. I went to the Mercury Magnetics web site and they have kits for almost any tube amp. I can do a choke upgrade on my DSL401 if I want. The downside is that the upgrade transformers are huge! It probably adds 20 pounds or more to an already heavy amp. If anything, I think I would probably just go with the choke upgrade. The choke is an inductor that replaces a fixed resistor in the power supply. It makes for a smoother power supply throughout the entire frequency range. I think that the choke and some really good tubes would create the sound I am looking for over a vanilla Marshall amp. $700 bucks is what I paid for my almost new TSL100 head.

For example:

1.TSL100 Head @ $900.00 (average price for a like new model)
2.Replace PWR, OP Trannies and install choke, including labor @ $1000.00
3.Telefunken EL34's (quad) @ $460
4.USA NOS Preamp Tubes (quad) @ $80

Damn! It's like owning a Ferrari. It adds up quick. You got to go to Mercury Magnetic's and look at the power tranny for a 100 watt amp. It looks like one of the old NYC Trade Towers. Some of the kits aren't available for combos, because of the size of the transformers. Think "Matchless."

Just thought that I would add this, Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-14-2009, 09:02 PM

I hear ya Mate. I would love to just go for it w/ my amp, but it looks as though I'll more than likely have to do it the way Johny Cash got his Caddillac... One Piece At A Time!

I haven't scouted the Mercury site for TSL parts yet, but I have looked at Voodoo Amps mods and they are pricey too... But I've heard good things about them... Have a look... Voodoo Amps JCM2000 TSL-122 Combo Mod, Mods, Modifications.

In the meantime, I will just keep experimenting w/ what I've got here for tubes, and start thinking out how I want to set up cooling fans in the amp.

I think perhaps my power tubes are going... I noticed that the two I pulled from the amp to make room for the Yellow Jackets had a wee bit of rattle when shaken... I have as of the past few times playing noticed an increasing "rattling" sound through my amp's clean channel... Definitely not something lose (initially I thought it might be a reverb spring rattling around or something), and definitely coming through the speakers... I guess maybe in a week or two when I scratch together the $$$ I'll get new power tubes and re-bias the amp... What do you think?

Regarding the Mercury Magnetics choke... I had gathered that a choke really only makes a difference if you play loud... Is that true?

MartyStrat54 · 04-14-2009, 09:19 PM

So it's time to reshoe the old horse is it? Are you going to put Telefunkens in it?

(LOL!)

Isn't it incredible what kind of money you can spend on a stock Marshall? It's like saying, "You're good, but not good enough!" I wish I could buy a Marshall and there were no mod's, no tube swapping, nothing that would make it sound any better. It would be complete, no options needed. Instead, it's like swap out half of everything and replace it with triple digit parts and that will make a world of difference.

Take the choke for instance. The old Marshall's had them as well as any well made tube amp. Did Marshall quit using them in favor of a cheap resistor to make the amps more profitable (on their end)?

To answer your question, I like the way a choke works at any volume level.

When you get those power tubes are you going to go with EL34's or KT77's?
Are you going to just get two and run your amp the way it is with the YJ's? I have a strong pair of Winged C EL34's if you are interested.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-14-2009, 09:53 PM

... Yeah... I think I'm gonna have to pass on the Telefunkens... As cool as that potentially might be... Uh... No.

I hear ya on the mod factor... Seems like there is a never ending supply of overpriced parts that could be replaced to help get ya closer to building the perfect beast...

I'm not sure on whether to go w/ KT77's or just throw in a set of EL34's... I know w/ EL34's Marshall's recommended bias is at 90mV, but I'm not sure what I would set the bias at w/ the KT77's... I have been investigating, and it looks like in either case I would need to install a complete set of four valves to get the bias set correctly, then, if I desire... I could throw the YJ's back in...

... I guess this thread has made at least half the circle, eh? Started out talking about pre-amp tubes, and now... Power amp tubes, chokes, and tranny's... Hmm..

MartyStrat54 · 04-15-2009, 04:46 PM

Yeah, I told you that already in a different thread about having to replace all four 34's and do the bias and then pull out the middle two and put the YJ's back in. Sometimes I forget what I've already said. Thank goodness, you keep up on all of it. (I was just joking about the Telefunkens, but wouldn't it be cool to say that your amp had, "Four Telefunken gray plate power tubes!")

I'll try to keep my nose clean and stay on the tubes instead of going off on little side trips. Actually, I wish I could get it out of my head, because I really don't want to put a 35 pound power tranny in my amp. I've had multiple hernia surgeries in the past. I don't need another. The TSL122 is a load all by itself. I don't need to add another 40 pounds to it with multiple tranny mods.

None of the tubes have showed up yet. That's some slow-ass shipping. I'm looking forward to A/B'ing the 12AX7A's up against the RCA 7025 in the V1 slot. I'm also going to experiment with those slip on tube shields and try them on at least V1 and V2. I run a lot of effects on the front end of the amp into the clean channel. The cleaner it is, the better the effects sound. Such as a Boss CE-3, it gets all shimmery and I really like that sound. I think I will probably be taking out some of the USA tubes and replacing them with current production, such as a JJ or a Tung-Sol. I don't think I need to use real nice tubes in all of the slots. I think V3 and V4 are candidates for cheaper tubes (less critical).

Did you read that reply I made to cudamax about matching tubes? I read a large report and it basically stated that V4 (phase invertor) "does not" need to be a close match. So much for the "must be matched" mentality.

I'll post the tube results when they get here. Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-15-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... I'll try to keep my nose clean and stay on the tubes instead of going off on little side trips. Actually, I wish I could get it out of my head, because I really don't want to put a 35 pound power tranny in my amp. I've had multiple hernia surgeries in the past. I don't need another. The TSL122 is a load all by itself. I don't need to add another 40 pounds to it with multiple tranny mods...

No worries mate. It's all good. Other than the hernias, that is! I appreciate your input on all things TSL, so please... Keep it comin'!

Hey, what do you think of the Voodoo mods?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... I'm looking forward to A/B'ing the 12AX7A's up against the RCA 7025 in the V1 slot. I'm also going to experiment with those slip on tube shields and try them on at least V1 and V2...

I am exited to hear how this goes sinse you mentioned doing the A/B comparisons on your TSL122, and although I know there are some other forum members running the TSL's, most of them aren't as vocal about what they are doing with them mod-wise. So I really appreciate hearing about yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... I run a lot of effects on the front end of the amp into the clean channel. The cleaner it is, the better the effects sound. Such as a Boss CE-3, it gets all shimmery and I really like that sound...

I currently am not running any because I sold most of my gear to buy my marshall, but I do know that chorus & delay are tops on my list of effects to aquire, probably followed by an eq and possibly a flanger. But first and foremost chorus and delay because I lllove that shimmery clean sound and I think delay on my lead channel just makes it sound huge. Love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... I think I will probably be taking out some of the USA tubes and replacing them with current production, such as a JJ or a Tung-Sol. I don't think I need to use real nice tubes in all of the slots. I think V3 and V4 are candidates for cheaper tubes (less critical).

Even in my limited experimentation, I've found that V1 & V2 seem to be the most critical tone-wise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... Did you read that reply I made to cudamax about matching tubes? I read a large report and it basically stated that V4 (phase inverter) "does not" need to be a close match. So much for the "must be matched" mentality.

I'll post the tube results when they get here. Marty

So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?

MartyStrat54 · 04-15-2009, 09:10 PM

So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?

The KT77's are a direct replacement for the EL34's and therefore bias is the same. I set mine at the factory recommended 90mV. Some players like it a little hotter and some go for 80mV. I think the 90 number is good for me.

Also, I have heard of the VooDoo mod's, but I have never used an amp with any of them. So I'm pretty worthless on that subject. Maybe SolarBurn has some experience with them?

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 04-16-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?

The KT77's are a direct replacement for the EL34's and therefore bias is the same. I set mine at the factory recommended 90mV. Some players like it a little hotter and some go for 80mV. I think the 90 number is good for me.

Also, I have heard of the VooDoo mod's, but I have never used an amp with any of them. So I'm pretty worthless on that subject. Maybe SolarBurn has some experience with them?

Marty

I had the Deluxe Voodoo mods done to my amp. I thought it sounded good at first. It developed some problems later on playing at volume though. It thinned out. I put it through several tube changes. I saw a vid of another modder FJA and it was his mod on a DSL. I thought it was really good. So good I wanted his mods on my amp.

I just got my amp back from Jerry at FJA. So far its great. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but I like what I'm hearing. I had him add a choke with his circuit mods. I already have the MM OT. Here's what he found diagnosing my Voodoo modded amp:

1. Circuit board had black liquid electrical tape covering mod work solder joints. I saw pics of this.
2. Several circuit traces lifted due to previous mod work poor soldering skills.
3. Deep switch inoperable.
4. Presence control did very little.

I'm not going to trash Voodoo but I feel I got a better mod with FJA. It sounds better IMO to my ears. I'm allowed to have a preference. I expect work done on my amp to be top notch. If I don't get that I will certainly share that info. So at this point in time I recommend FJA mods on a DSL50.

steelhorse · 04-16-2009, 01:50 AM

Thanks for the info Solar.

MartyStrat54 · 04-16-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

Thanks for the info Solar.

Hey Steelhorse! Welcome to our private little thread that is now four pages long. This is where you will find the good stuff. Come back any time, as you are always welcomed.

Atten...hut! All tubes present and accounted for. I'm getting ready to go test them on my little baby. (The baby don't lie!) Damn, I got me a nice mess of Mullards.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 04-16-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Now that sounds like a great connection. Let us know what you end up with from your favorite seller. 124/122 is high gain eh. I hope its a good'n. Definitely want to hear what ya think on that one.

Well, this is the strongest 12AX7 I have ever had. I mean it is brutally strong. It tests twice as strong as a good one. What's more, it is almost perfectly balanced. I pulled the 7025 out of V1 (after playing some power chord progressions) and replaced it with the Mullard/RCA. I flipped the standby switch and I knew I was in trouble. It was like a massive clean and I had to turn the master volume down a couple of notches. (V2, V3 and V4 are my matching GE's). This is my TSL122 amp by the way.

I've had to turn it down more as to get back to my earlier volume level. Man does this tube get loud! It has a little more top end than the RCA 7025 and I feel the mids are very close. However, I feel that the 7025 might have a wee bit more midbass to it. That, or this tube is so prominent in the high mids that it covers up the bottom end.

I cooled her down and went with the 7025 back in V1 and I replaced the GE in V2 with the ICBM. Wow! This is a sound that no one would complain about. I want to put it through the grinder. Hold on a minute.

I am now burning the power cord on my amp as I have hooked my Rocktron Zombie Rectifier and Silver Dragon up to the amp. I am going through the front door with the amp set on ultra clean. It's like cooking a thick steak...juicy! Wow! That is some crunch-a-bunch. (I think I sound better than Ted Nugent on Stranglehold.) Just was jammin' out with the stereo which is cranked halfway and its a 200 watt system with custom speakers.

And you guys thought that Neil Young was the only guy that played two distortion pedals at the same time. "Move over Neil!" The Silver Dragon has a 12AX7 in it and I've replaced it with a 1959 RCA about a year ago. I got it off of Ebay really cheap (no one had bid on it). I think it is one hell of a pedal. Look it up if you got the time. It's a Rocktron as well.

Well, that was the loudest that I've played in some time. I'm checking to make sure the cops aren't outside my door. I probably shouldn't have played that loud. Shame on me.

Well, the ICBM is a huge hit. It is one powerful 12AX7. It probably has a gain of 140 to 150, or in other words, a tube and a half. What is scary is that the Black Plate Raytheon tested almost as strong. Black Plates are usually really ballsy in the lower to upper mids.

Speaking of testing. All of the tubes tested at, or better than new. That gives me eight new 12AX7's to add to my collection. Yeah, no junk tubes! I'm going to be in Oklahoma this weekend, so I won't be back at it until Monday.

This concludes "Phase 1."

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-16-2009, 07:01 PM

Well it sounds like the atomic bomb testing grounds are at Marty's house today. Don't worry Marty, I'll swing by and "look after" your gear while you are away!

With "Phase 1" being a complete success, and me sitting here wishing I didn't have to leave in 30 minutes so that I could plug in fer a bit... All I can say is AWESOME!!! Let us know as soon as soon as your report of Phase 2 becomes available. Rock on!

PS... I guess maybe I should have bid against you on the auction, eh?

Nah... I wouldn't do that to you. G'day mate!

solarburnDSL50 · 04-16-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

Thanks for the info Solar.

You got it brother.

joshuaaewallen · 04-16-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

I had the Deluxe Voodoo mods done to my amp. I thought it sounded good at first. It developed some problems later on playing at volume though. It thinned out. I put it through several tube changes. I saw a vid of another modder FJA and it was his mod on a DSL. I thought it was really good. So good I wanted his mods on my amp.

I just got my amp back from Jerry at FJA. So far its great. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but I like what I'm hearing. I had him add a choke with his circuit mods. I already have the MM OT. Here's what he found diagnosing my Voodoo modded amp:

1. Circuit board had black liquid electrical tape covering mod work solder joints. I saw pics of this.
2. Several circuit traces lifted due to previous mod work poor soldering skills.
3. Deep switch inoperable.
4. Presence control did very little.

I'm not going to trash Voodoo but I feel I got a better mod with FJA. It sounds better IMO to my ears. I'm allowed to have a preference. I expect work done on my amp to be top notch. If I don't get that I will certainly share that info. So at this point in time I recommend FJA mods on a DSL50.

Thanks for the feedback. I have been looking at the Voodoo mods for quite some time now, but thankfully haven't had the $$$ to pull the trigger. Sounds like I might be better off avoiding them for the time being anyway... I looked at the FJA website... Looks interesting... Ahh... Maybe someday....

solarburnDSL50 · 04-16-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well, this is the strongest 12AX7 I have ever had. I mean it is brutally strong. It tests twice as strong as a good one. What's more, it is almost perfectly balanced. I pulled the 7025 out of V1 (after playing some power chord progressions) and replaced it with the Mullard/RCA. I flipped the standby switch and I knew I was in trouble. It was like a massive clean and I had to turn the master volume down a couple of notches. (V2, V3 and V4 are my matching GE's). This is my TSL122 amp by the way.

I've had to turn it down more as to get back to my earlier volume level. Man does this tube get loud! It has a little more top end than the RCA 7025 and I feel the mids are very close. However, I feel that the 7025 might have a wee bit more midbass to it. That, or this tube is so prominent in the high mids that it covers up the bottom end.

I cooled her down and went with the 7025 back in V1 and I replaced the GE in V2 with the ICBM. Wow! This is a sound that no one would complain about. I want to put it through the grinder. Hold on a minute.

I am now burning the power cord on my amp as I have hooked my Rocktron Zombie Rectifier and Silver Dragon up to the amp. I am going through the front door with the amp set on ultra clean. It's like cooking a thick steak...juicy! Wow! That is some crunch-a-bunch. (I think I sound better than Ted Nugent on Stranglehold.) Just was jammin' out with the stereo which is cranked halfway and its a 200 watt system with custom speakers.

And you guys thought that Neil Young was the only guy that played two distortion pedals at the same time. "Move over Neil!" The Silver Dragon has a 12AX7 in it and I've replaced it with a 1959 RCA about a year ago. I got it off of Ebay really cheap (no one had bid on it). I think it is one hell of a pedal. Look it up if you got the time. It's a Rocktron as well.

Well, that was the loudest that I've played in some time. I'm checking to make sure the cops aren't outside my door. I probably shouldn't have played that loud. Shame on me.

Well, the ICBM is a huge hit. It is one powerful 12AX7. It probably has a gain of 140 to 150, or in other words, a tube and a half. What is scary is that the Black Plate Raytheon tested almost as strong. Black Plates are usually really ballsy in the lower to upper mids.

Speaking of testing. All of the tubes tested at, or better than new. That gives me eight new 12AX7's to add to my collection. Yeah, no junk tubes! I'm going to be in Oklahoma this weekend, so I won't be back at it until Monday.

This concludes "Phase 1."

Marty

Holee gramolee Batman! How are your ears after that onslaught of Marshall rage?! That is one smok'n tube!

Great to hear all of them tested so good. Nice score man. Great info too. I enjoyed every step of that demo.

I wouldn't mind trying the Black Plates if they are good in the lower mids as well as the upper.

I love Strangle Hold by Nuge. Must have been crazy loud man.

On a side note I'm having fun too. I just got my amp back from FJA and plugged my Tele HH into it for the first time. Marshall-gasm! I'm very happy! Its got a set of Balls. I got to drop Jerry a note and thank him soon.

Have a great weekend in Oakleehomah man.

solarburnDSL50 · 04-16-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

Thanks for the feedback. I have been looking at the Voodoo mods for quite some time now, but thankfully haven't had the $$$ to pull the trigger. Sounds like I might be better off avoiding them for the time being anyway... I looked at the FJA website... Looks interesting... Ahh... Maybe someday....

Take your time man. It isn't the end all beat all tone miracle. If you like your amp already it just helps dynamics, sustain and feel a bit. The voicing of the amp stays the same. Put a little money away here and there and maybe some day it will be enough for the circuit mod and OT change.

Remember you won't make your money back from the mod if you sell your amp. It really doesn't increase the value. So you need to consider that too.

I'm keeping the DSL50 so having it modded was worth it to me. I wanted it sounding its best as my blues and rock amp. Jerry did good for me.

MartyStrat54 · 04-16-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Holee gramolee Batman! How are your ears after that onslaught of Marshall rage?! That is one smok'n tube!

Great to hear all of them tested so good. Nice score man. Great info too. I enjoyed every step of that demo.

I wouldn't mind trying the Black Plates if they are good in the lower mids as well as the upper.

I love Strangle Hold by Nuge. Must have been crazy loud man.

On a side note I'm having fun too. I just got my amp back from FJA and plugged my Tele HH into it for the first time. Marshall-gasm! I'm very happy! Its got a set of Balls. I got to drop Jerry a note and thank him soon.

Have a great weekend in Oakleehomah man.

Thank god you don't need to hear to read! Yes, it was Crazy Train loud. I think the neighbors thought I flipped out on ludes or something. Hey you said something that I want to respond to. In 2004, I almost bought a Goldtop Tele with DiMarzio HH's in it. God it was pretty and the price was right, but alas, I bought a long scale Schecter instead. It's a much fancier looking guitar, but I somehow felt like I should have went with the Tele. In 2008, I bought a brand new, USA, Blizzard Pearl Tele. What a sweet, little guitar. Now I wish that I had bought the Goldtop, even if it was made in Mexico. I've been looking around and I can't find a used Goldtop HH anywhere. Anyway, I'm glad you got your amp back and that you have a HH Tele to play. (I didn't know you were getting all the mod's...now you just need a couple of sweet tubes in V1 and V2.)

solarburnDSL50 · 04-16-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Thank god you don't need to hear to read! Yes, it was Crazy Train loud. I think the neighbors thought I flipped out on ludes or something. Hey you said something that I want to respond to. In 2004, I almost bought a Goldtop Tele with DiMarzio HH's in it. God it was pretty and the price was right, but alas, I bought a long scale Schecter instead. It's a much fancier looking guitar, but I somehow felt like I should have went with the Tele. In 2008, I bought a brand new, USA, Blizzard Pearl Tele. What a sweet, little guitar. Now I wish that I had bought the Goldtop, even if it was made in Mexico. I've been looking around and I can't find a used Goldtop HH anywhere. Anyway, I'm glad you got your amp back and that you have a HH Tele to play. (I didn't know you were getting all the mod's...now you just need a couple of sweet tubes in V1 and V2.)

I traded my Gothic SG for the Gold top cause I just loved the way it sounded and played. My sister-in-laws kid had it and he wanted an SG. Worked out great for both of us. That Tele is so meaty sounding almost like a Les Paul. Those Dimarzios slay. Traditional it is not. I love it. I'm all about mess'n round with the tubes and I now know someone named Marty that can tell me about em'.

I'm really lov'n the Marshall.

MartyStrat54 · 04-17-2009, 02:24 PM

Anyone new to this thread want to jump in and let us know what tubes you are using? I am especially interested in hearing about current production tubes like Sovtek, Mullard and Tung-Sol. Chinese tubes as well.

If you currently retubed, what brand did you use? Are you satisfied?

Come on and jump in and let us know. I know that not everyone is using USA NOS tubes. Some of you are using stock, OE Marshall tubes and/or Russian or Chinese tubes. What is your thoughts and opinions? Are you getting the sound you are after with these tubes?

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-18-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

... I think perhaps my power tubes are going... I noticed that the two I pulled from the amp to make room for the Yellow Jackets had a wee bit of rattle when shaken... I have as of the past few times playing noticed an increasing "rattling" sound through my amp's clean channel... Definitely not something lose (initially I thought it might be a reverb spring rattling around or something), and definitely coming through the speakers... I guess maybe in a week or two when I scratch together the $$$ I'll get new power tubes and re-bias the amp...

... I'm not sure on whether to go w/ KT77's or just throw in a set of EL34's...

I lucked out and got a bonus at work for referring a new employee to the company and since he has been there for six months now... I get new power tubes for my TSL122. I decided to try the E34L ( 6CA7 ) tubes that Bob over at Eurotubes sells. I'll post again after I install and re-bias the amp. Maybe next time I'll try the KT77's...

steelhorse · 04-19-2009, 12:36 AM

Congrats on the bonus joshua!

I referred 2 new guys to a company I worked for and was a few weeks away from getting the bonus but I got a better job, oh well.

What amp are you putting the E34L's into? I love those tubes and am seriously considering yanking my KT77's in my TSL100 in favor of them.

I'm p-p'ing the idea.

Pondering and procrastinating!

steelhorse · 04-19-2009, 12:37 AM

On never mind I see you're gonna do them in the TSL122.

Even better! Let me know what you think!

MartyStrat54 · 04-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Hello all, I'm back. I got to go see one of my old Okie buddies play in his band. They were damn good. They play "every night" plus their day jobs. It was fun to see him again. I used to play in a power trio with him and I played the bass. (He's ten years younger than I am...makes a big difference.)

Hey, just for fun I put the RCA/Mullard (ICBM) and the Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and V2 of my DSL401. As you know, I think my 1999 401 sounded better than my 2006 model (colder factory bias). Wow! These two tubes transform it into a beast beyond my 99 model. I mean you can get violin like sustain from it now. (Currently I have the EL84 Telefunkens in it and V3 and V4 are USA NOS RCA Gray Plates). The speaker is an Eminence Red Fang Alnico (103dB @ 1W). With the gain that you get from these two tube, it allows a lot of different tone shaping. The Raytheon Black Plate has added more bottom end to the overall sound. It makes my amp sound bigger than a one 12 open back combo.

Then I went and took the ICBM and the BP (Black Plate) and put them into the TSL122. That left a NOS GE in V3 and V4. It adds about 10 to 15 Hz to the bottom end of the Man O' War speakers in an open back combo. I have the low end of a closed back without the beaming you get from a closed back cabinet. The sound is very open. These four preamp tubes would kick ass in a DSL. The crunch I can dial in is easy as pie. If I put the pre gain on 6, I cannot turn the master up very high at all, maybe 2. The Man O' War speakers are very efficient and 1 watt is cracking 105 dB. I'm thinking that it would sound even better with some speakers that were like 96 dB efficient, but then with a 100 watt amp, it wouldn't make that much difference, even at low volume. This rig right now could and will keep up with a half stack. The Man O' War speakers ensure this.

The main thing is the new V1 and V2 make any of my amps sound good. The clean channel is beyond Fender. It's spit and polish clean. It makes the amp feel like a 200 watt amp. The amps natural OD is way out there.

I then took a Mullard (that we'll call M1) that measured very stout and replaced the BP with it. There was a slight drop in the "big gain" sensation, but not much as this tube tested 104/106. Some of the bottom end that I liked went away, but still not bad. The clean was very chimey and touch harmonics would just ring like a door bell. Swapping the M1 and the ICBM made a difference on total gain characteristics. The clean channel was more creamier sounding (and some people prefer this). However, this arrangement made the number 2 and 3 channels awesome. I was able to crank the pre up harder. So now I am thinking maybe the ICBM should be in V2 with a Mullard in V1. However, I put the RCA 7025 back into V1 and "Wow!" what a sound. This is how I finally left it.

RCA 1961 7025-V1
RCA/Mullard 1964 12AX7-V2
GE 1959 12AX7-V3
GE 1959 12AX7-V4

I may do some swapping with the other Mullards I got with the GE's in V3 and V4, but right now the above tube combination is just friggin' amazing.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-20-2009, 06:39 PM

Hey Marty. Thanks for the update. And I'm glad you had a good visit in Okie... I loved this latest installment of your Tube Town Adventures... The only problem is it brings out the Tube Junkie that's I have to keep locked away because he always wants more toys!

steelhorse · 04-20-2009, 06:44 PM

There's always the taco bell sacrifice.

solarburnDSL50 · 04-20-2009, 08:13 PM

Yep. Thanks Marty. I'll read it again when I have a little more time.

joshuaaewallen · 04-20-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

There's always the taco bell sacrifice.

No sacrifice is too great when one's pursuit is the ultimate in tone!

MartyStrat54 · 04-20-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Yep. Thanks Marty. I'll read it again when I have a little more time.

Hey, I sent you a private email. Get back to me when you can.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 04-22-2009, 04:10 PM

Since I have so many 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's, I've reached the conclusion that it could take months to perform all of the various tube swaps. (I think that is why I settled quickly for what is currently in my TSL122.)

I did take all of the pre tubes out of my 122 and I replaced them with the following Mullards: M1, M2, M3 and M4. M3 and M4 were not as balanced as M1 and M2, but I've already read the research papers that stated you don't have to be perfect, especially on V4. It can be off balance and the amp will still work fine.

Anyway, I put the two strongest Mullards in V1 and V2. The amp sounded great. A lot better than stock. It didn't have the dam breaking sensation the the ICBM and the BP had, but nonetheless it had a lot of gain. Again, this is the sound that some players would crave. The Mullards have a very wide audio spectrum and I got some low end out of these tubes without any sacrifice to the mids and high mids.

Just for grins and giggles, I pulled V4 and put in a Tung-Sol USA 5751. This made a change in the amount of pre and post drive you could push through the amp. You could take the pre and push it higher and the post volume could be cranked more. This gave a more "power tube" sound when pushed to the volumes I dare not say how loud!

I then pulled the 5751 and put in a brand new, NOS USA JAN 12AT7. The 5751 has a gain of 70 and the 12AT7 has a gain of 60. Putting it in made the Marshall very tame. I don't want to use the term, "Fender sounding," but it wasn't the "Marshall sound." I could twist the pre to 8 and the master volume to 6 and it had a very smooth, clean, high headroom sound to it.

I then pulled V1 and V2 and put in the ICBM and the BP. Completely different sound. Not the extreme bluesbreaker sound with massive gain, but these two tubes actually defeated the lower gain characteristics of the 12AT7! I took out the 12AT7 and put in the 5751 and it was almost as if I was running a 12AX7. Finally, I put the M1 and M2 tubes in V3 and V4. Now I have four, very high gain tubes in the amp. V3 measured just a hair lower than the BP. Once again the amp had this sensation of being a 200 watt amp. It was just biting at the bit waiting to bust out of the gate. The BP adds the deeper mids to the mix and the Mullards have exceptional bell-like highs. The total sound was not like any stock Marshall I have ever played, including the 800 and 900. This is the sort of sound that a pro would demand for his onstage rig. Even the crunch channel was articulate and would point out any wrong note.

Conclusion: I like the high gain sound. I have a variety of tubes that will get me there. It is very difficult trying to determine what tubes make the best sound, because they all in fact sound good. I could take two, Tung-Sol 5751's and put them in V1 and V2 with M1 and M2 in V3 and V4. What sort of sound would this produce? Probably a really nice hot-rod sound for a blues style player. Who knows, maybe it would scream heavy metal.

Anyway, I may play around a little more with this amp. It has four, Siemens (West Germany) EL34's in it and they are really superior tubes to anything that is current production. I personally think that the Germans made the best EL34's. This brings up the second variable. You get the pre tubes you like and then you swap out the power tubes to see what happens to the sound.

The third variable is the speakers and the type of cabinet they are in. I just bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro's. They are sort of pricey at about $300 a pair, but they are called sleeper speakers. A lot of guitarist's are using them because they are very neutral sounding (and can take a lot of power). A lot of people talk about the older Celestions getting down to 55Hz, well these go lower. You can use them as a bass or guitar speaker. The high end is around 4.8KHz. They work well in closed or open back cabinets.

The fourth variable is you and how you play. I could love an amps sound playing it my way and you could come up with a sharp pick attack and say it sounds like crap.

One other variable that some claim plays a part in your sound is the cables. High quality versus low quality can make a difference in the sound for both the guitar cables and the cabinet cables.

Right now I am overwhelmed with the sound I am getting. Four weeks ago, I thought I had some pretty good tones happening. What a difference "one" tube can make, let alone two. My amp has never sounded this good. The tone controls almost seem "active." You bump up the mids and "Wham!" you get some mids in your face. You tweak the pre just a little and "Wham!" it makes a noticeable difference in the drive and volume.

The main thing is we all know that each tube is a little different, new or old. The BP has the ballsy lows and low mids that sets it apart from the rest of the tubes. (I have many other BP's, I've just not done any tube rolling with them.) The Mullards have a well balanced tone, especially the high mids. The GE's are more smoother sounding and would be great for say a Jeff Beck sound with all of his crying notes. The 7025 is superior in V1 because it is quiet and powerful and sends this signal to the ICBM. Of course, I could pull it and replace it with the more ballsy BP. Again, this tube swapping could go on forever.

I would like to hear from other forum members about their tube swapping adventures. I guess you can say I'm a hard core swapper now. Josh and Joe got me off of my butt and I started going against the norm. I thought I was pretty happy with the 7025 and three GE's in my TSL122. Now look. The tube lineup has changed and so has the sound of my amp.

I'm looking forward to hearing from others and what they have ended up with.

Marty

"Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird?"

solarburnDSL50 · 04-22-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Since I have so many 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's, I've reached the conclusion that it could take months to perform all of the various tube swaps. (I think that is why I settled quickly for what is currently in my TSL122.)

I did take all of the pre tubes out of my 122 and I replaced them with the following Mullards: M1, M2, M3 and M4. M3 and M4 were not as balanced as M1 and M2, but I've already read the research papers that stated you don't have to be perfect, especially on V4. It can be off balance and the amp will still work fine.

Anyway, I put the two strongest Mullards in V1 and V2. The amp sounded great. A lot better than stock. It didn't have the dam breaking sensation the the ICBM and the BP had, but nonetheless it had a lot of gain. Again, this is the sound that some players would crave. The Mullards have a very wide audio spectrum and I got some low end out of these tubes without any sacrifice to the mids and high mids.

Just for grins and giggles, I pulled V4 and put in a Tung-Sol USA 5751. This made a change in the amount of pre and post drive you could push through the amp. You could take the pre and push it higher and the post volume could be cranked more. This gave a more "power tube" sound when pushed to the volumes I dare not say how loud!

I then pulled the 5751 and put in a brand new, NOS USA JAN 12AT7. The 5751 has a gain of 70 and the 12AT7 has a gain of 60. Putting it in made the Marshall very tame. I don't want to use the term, "Fender sounding," but it wasn't the "Marshall sound." I could twist the pre to 8 and the master volume to 6 and it had a very smooth, clean, high headroom sound to it.

I then pulled V1 and V2 and put in the ICBM and the BP. Completely different sound. Not the extreme bluesbreaker sound with massive gain, but these two tubes actually defeated the lower gain characteristics of the 12AT7! I took out the 12AT7 and put in the 5751 and it was almost as if I was running a 12AX7. Finally, I put the M1 and M2 tubes in V3 and V4. Now I have four, very high gain tubes in the amp. V3 measured just a hair lower than the BP. Once again the amp had this sensation of being a 200 watt amp. It was just biting at the bit waiting to bust out of the gate. The BP adds the deeper mids to the mix and the Mullards have exceptional bell-like highs. The total sound was not like any stock Marshall I have ever played, including the 800 and 900. This is the sort of sound that a pro would demand for his onstage rig. Even the crunch channel was articulate and would point out and wrong note.

Conclusion: I like the high gain sound. I have a variety of tubes that will get me there. It is very difficult trying to determine what tubes make the best sound, because they all in fact sound good. I could take two, Tung-Sol 5751's and put them in V1 and V2 with M1 and M2 in V3 and V4. What sort of sound would this produce? Probably a really nice hot-rod sound for a blues style player. Who knows, maybe it would scream heavy metal.

Anyway, I may play around a little more with this amp. It has four, Siemens (West Germany) EL34's in it and they are really superior tubes to anything that is current production. I personally think that the Germans made the best EL34's. This brings up the second variable. You get the pre tubes you like and then you swap out the power tubes to see what happens to the sound.

The third variable is the speakers and the type of cabinet they are in. I just bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro's. They are sort of pricey at about $300 a pair, but they are called sleeper speakers. A lot of guitarist's are using them because they are very neutral sounding (and can take a lot of power). A lot of people talk about the older Celestions getting down to 55Hz, well these go lower. You can use them as a bass or guitar speaker. The high end is around 4.8KHz. They work well in closed or open back cabinets.

The fourth variable is you and how you play. I could love an amps sound playing it my way and you could come up with a sharp pick attack and say it sounds like crap.

One other variable that some claim plays a part in your sound is the cables. High quality versus low quality can make a difference in the sound for both the guitar cables and the cabinet cables.

Right now I am overwhelmed with the sound I am getting. Four weeks ago, I thought I had some pretty good tones happening. What a difference "one" tube can make, let alone two. My amp has never sounded this good. The tone controls almost seem "active." You bump up the mids and "Wham!" you get some mids in your face. You tweak the pre just a little and "Wham!" it makes a noticeable difference in the drive and volume.

The main thing is we all know that each tube is a little different, new or old. The BP has the ballsy lows and low mids that sets it apart from the rest of the tubes. (I have many other BP's, I've just not did any tube rolling with them.) The Mullards have a well balanced tone, especially the high mids. The GE's are more smoother sounding and would be great for say a Jeff Beck sound with all of his crying notes. The 7025 is superior in V1 because it is quiet and powerful and sends this signal to the ICBM. Of course, I could pull it and replace it with the more ballsy BP. Again, this tube swapping could go on forever.

I would like to hear from other forum members about their tube swapping adventures. I guess you can say I'm a hard core swapper now. Josh and Joe got me off of my butt and I started going against the norm. I thought I was pretty happy with the 7025 and three GE's in my TSL122. Now look. The tube lineup has changed and so has the sound of my amp.

I'm looking forward to hearing from others and what they have ended up with.

Marty

"Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird?"

Awesome write up Marty. I've been messing around with the CV4024 AT7 in mine and I'm trying to make up my mind as to what differences I'm hearing in like the PI or V1 position. I've read where others have had some good results using either but I just need to spend a little more time with it. I do like the LPS in the PI only. I really haven't tried too many changes in the PI yet.

The other difficulty I have roll'n tubes is being able to play at volume. My father-in-law lives with us and I hardly get to crank it at home which is where I do most my experimenting. A bit frustrating but I deal with it. I haven't settled on my newest combination yet but am at the point where I am going to make individual changes on the pres now and see what happens. I want to put some winged seds in too but have to wait until next payday.

Well I'm off to the gym so I will get back to you later. Again great write up man!

Joe

04-14-2009, 08:29 PM	#91 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Well here is an update. I won the RCA/Mullard 12AX7 and a NOS Raytheon Black Plate 12AX7. Then when Reed's tube came up to bid on, I fell asleep and didn't get to bid on any of them. That was like sucking the hind tit on a boar hog...useless. Anyway, I made up for it as I won a lot of six Mullards for $69. That was a huge win for six Mullards for well under $100. I should get the first two soon, like tomorrow and I will try to do an A/B test in my TSL122. On a side note. Here we are rolling tubes for that special sound. However, some people go all out, even more so than me. They put in the USA NOS preamp tubes and they have Telefunken EL34's for power, but they do something else that runs more than $700 (parts only). They replace the output and power transformers and they also install a choke. I went to the Mercury Magnetics web site and they have kits for almost any tube amp. I can do a choke upgrade on my DSL401 if I want. The downside is that the upgrade transformers are huge! It probably adds 20 pounds or more to an already heavy amp. If anything, I think I would probably just go with the choke upgrade. The choke is an inductor that replaces a fixed resistor in the power supply. It makes for a smoother power supply throughout the entire frequency range. I think that the choke and some really good tubes would create the sound I am looking for over a vanilla Marshall amp. $700 bucks is what I paid for my almost new TSL100 head. For example: 1.TSL100 Head @ $900.00 (average price for a like new model) 2.Replace PWR, OP Trannies and install choke, including labor @ $1000.00 3.Telefunken EL34's (quad) @ $460 4.USA NOS Preamp Tubes (quad) @ $80 Damn! It's like owning a Ferrari. It adds up quick. You got to go to Mercury Magnetic's and look at the power tranny for a 100 watt amp. It looks like one of the old NYC Trade Towers. Some of the kits aren't available for combos, because of the size of the transformers. Think "Matchless." Just thought that I would add this, Marty

04-14-2009, 09:02 PM	#92 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? I hear ya Mate. I would love to just go for it w/ my amp, but it looks as though I'll more than likely have to do it the way Johny Cash got his Caddillac... One Piece At A Time! I haven't scouted the Mercury site for TSL parts yet, but I have looked at Voodoo Amps mods and they are pricey too... But I've heard good things about them... Have a look... Voodoo Amps JCM2000 TSL-122 Combo Mod, Mods, Modifications. In the meantime, I will just keep experimenting w/ what I've got here for tubes, and start thinking out how I want to set up cooling fans in the amp. I think perhaps my power tubes are going... I noticed that the two I pulled from the amp to make room for the Yellow Jackets had a wee bit of rattle when shaken... I have as of the past few times playing noticed an increasing "rattling" sound through my amp's clean channel... Definitely not something lose (initially I thought it might be a reverb spring rattling around or something), and definitely coming through the speakers... I guess maybe in a week or two when I scratch together the $$$ I'll get new power tubes and re-bias the amp... What do you think? Regarding the Mercury Magnetics choke... I had gathered that a choke really only makes a difference if you play loud... Is that true? __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

04-14-2009, 09:19 PM	#93 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? So it's time to reshoe the old horse is it? Are you going to put Telefunkens in it?(LOL!) Isn't it incredible what kind of money you can spend on a stock Marshall? It's like saying, "You're good, but not good enough!" I wish I could buy a Marshall and there were no mod's, no tube swapping, nothing that would make it sound any better. It would be complete, no options needed. Instead, it's like swap out half of everything and replace it with triple digit parts and that will make a world of difference. Take the choke for instance. The old Marshall's had them as well as any well made tube amp. Did Marshall quit using them in favor of a cheap resistor to make the amps more profitable (on their end)? To answer your question, I like the way a choke works at any volume level. When you get those power tubes are you going to go with EL34's or KT77's? Are you going to just get two and run your amp the way it is with the YJ's? I have a strong pair of Winged C EL34's if you are interested. Marty

04-14-2009, 09:53 PM	#94 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: TSL122 Tubes, Chokes, & Transformers, Etc... ... Yeah... I think I'm gonna have to pass on the Telefunkens... As cool as that potentially might be... Uh... No. I hear ya on the mod factor... Seems like there is a never ending supply of overpriced parts that could be replaced to help get ya closer to building the perfect beast... I'm not sure on whether to go w/ KT77's or just throw in a set of EL34's... I know w/ EL34's Marshall's recommended bias is at 90mV, but I'm not sure what I would set the bias at w/ the KT77's... I have been investigating, and it looks like in either case I would need to install a complete set of four valves to get the bias set correctly, then, if I desire... I could throw the YJ's back in... ... I guess this thread has made at least half the circle, eh? Started out talking about pre-amp tubes, and now... Power amp tubes, chokes, and tranny's... Hmm.. __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama Last edited by joshuaaewallen; 04-16-2009 at 07:34 PM.

04-15-2009, 04:46 PM	#95 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Yeah, I told you that already in a different thread about having to replace all four 34's and do the bias and then pull out the middle two and put the YJ's back in. Sometimes I forget what I've already said. Thank goodness, you keep up on all of it. (I was just joking about the Telefunkens, but wouldn't it be cool to say that your amp had, "Four Telefunken gray plate power tubes!") I'll try to keep my nose clean and stay on the tubes instead of going off on little side trips. Actually, I wish I could get it out of my head, because I really don't want to put a 35 pound power tranny in my amp. I've had multiple hernia surgeries in the past. I don't need another. The TSL122 is a load all by itself. I don't need to add another 40 pounds to it with multiple tranny mods. None of the tubes have showed up yet. That's some slow-ass shipping. I'm looking forward to A/B'ing the 12AX7A's up against the RCA 7025 in the V1 slot. I'm also going to experiment with those slip on tube shields and try them on at least V1 and V2. I run a lot of effects on the front end of the amp into the clean channel. The cleaner it is, the better the effects sound. Such as a Boss CE-3, it gets all shimmery and I really like that sound. I think I will probably be taking out some of the USA tubes and replacing them with current production, such as a JJ or a Tung-Sol. I don't think I need to use real nice tubes in all of the slots. I think V3 and V4 are candidates for cheaper tubes (less critical). Did you read that reply I made to cudamax about matching tubes? I read a large report and it basically stated that V4 (phase invertor) "does not" need to be a close match. So much for the "must be matched" mentality. I'll post the tube results when they get here. Marty

04-15-2009, 09:10 PM	#97 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's? The KT77's are a direct replacement for the EL34's and therefore bias is the same. I set mine at the factory recommended 90mV. Some players like it a little hotter and some go for 80mV. I think the 90 number is good for me. Also, I have heard of the VooDoo mod's, but I have never used an amp with any of them. So I'm pretty worthless on that subject. Maybe SolarBurn has some experience with them? Marty

04-16-2009, 01:50 AM	#99 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,886	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Thanks for the info Solar. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-16-2009, 07:01 PM	#102 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Well it sounds like the atomic bomb testing grounds are at Marty's house today. Don't worry Marty, I'll swing by and "look after" your gear while you are away! With "Phase 1" being a complete success, and me sitting here wishing I didn't have to leave in 30 minutes so that I could plug in fer a bit... All I can say is AWESOME!!! Let us know as soon as soon as your report of Phase 2 becomes available. Rock on! PS... I guess maybe I should have bid against you on the auction, eh? Nah... I wouldn't do that to you. G'day mate! __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

04-17-2009, 02:24 PM	#109 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Anyone new to this thread want to jump in and let us know what tubes you are using? I am especially interested in hearing about current production tubes like Sovtek, Mullard and Tung-Sol. Chinese tubes as well. If you currently retubed, what brand did you use? Are you satisfied? Come on and jump in and let us know. I know that not everyone is using USA NOS tubes. Some of you are using stock, OE Marshall tubes and/or Russian or Chinese tubes. What is your thoughts and opinions? Are you getting the sound you are after with these tubes? Marty

04-19-2009, 12:36 AM	#111 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,886	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Congrats on the bonus joshua! I referred 2 new guys to a company I worked for and was a few weeks away from getting the bonus but I got a better job, oh well. What amp are you putting the E34L's into? I love those tubes and am seriously considering yanking my KT77's in my TSL100 in favor of them. I'm p-p'ing the idea. Pondering and procrastinating! __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-19-2009, 12:37 AM	#112 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,886	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? On never mind I see you're gonna do them in the TSL122. Even better! Let me know what you think! __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-20-2009, 04:20 PM	#113 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Hello all, I'm back. I got to go see one of my old Okie buddies play in his band. They were damn good. They play "every night" plus their day jobs. It was fun to see him again. I used to play in a power trio with him and I played the bass. (He's ten years younger than I am...makes a big difference.) Hey, just for fun I put the RCA/Mullard (ICBM) and the Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and V2 of my DSL401. As you know, I think my 1999 401 sounded better than my 2006 model (colder factory bias). Wow! These two tubes transform it into a beast beyond my 99 model. I mean you can get violin like sustain from it now. (Currently I have the EL84 Telefunkens in it and V3 and V4 are USA NOS RCA Gray Plates). The speaker is an Eminence Red Fang Alnico (103dB @ 1W). With the gain that you get from these two tube, it allows a lot of different tone shaping. The Raytheon Black Plate has added more bottom end to the overall sound. It makes my amp sound bigger than a one 12 open back combo. Then I went and took the ICBM and the BP (Black Plate) and put them into the TSL122. That left a NOS GE in V3 and V4. It adds about 10 to 15 Hz to the bottom end of the Man O' War speakers in an open back combo. I have the low end of a closed back without the beaming you get from a closed back cabinet. The sound is very open. These four preamp tubes would kick ass in a DSL. The crunch I can dial in is easy as pie. If I put the pre gain on 6, I cannot turn the master up very high at all, maybe 2. The Man O' War speakers are very efficient and 1 watt is cracking 105 dB. I'm thinking that it would sound even better with some speakers that were like 96 dB efficient, but then with a 100 watt amp, it wouldn't make that much difference, even at low volume. This rig right now could and will keep up with a half stack. The Man O' War speakers ensure this. The main thing is the new V1 and V2 make any of my amps sound good. The clean channel is beyond Fender. It's spit and polish clean. It makes the amp feel like a 200 watt amp. The amps natural OD is way out there. I then took a Mullard (that we'll call M1) that measured very stout and replaced the BP with it. There was a slight drop in the "big gain" sensation, but not much as this tube tested 104/106. Some of the bottom end that I liked went away, but still not bad. The clean was very chimey and touch harmonics would just ring like a door bell. Swapping the M1 and the ICBM made a difference on total gain characteristics. The clean channel was more creamier sounding (and some people prefer this). However, this arrangement made the number 2 and 3 channels awesome. I was able to crank the pre up harder. So now I am thinking maybe the ICBM should be in V2 with a Mullard in V1. However, I put the RCA 7025 back into V1 and "Wow!" what a sound. This is how I finally left it. RCA 1961 7025-V1 RCA/Mullard 1964 12AX7-V2 GE 1959 12AX7-V3 GE 1959 12AX7-V4 I may do some swapping with the other Mullards I got with the GE's in V3 and V4, but right now the above tube combination is just friggin' amazing. Marty

04-20-2009, 06:39 PM	#114 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Hey Marty. Thanks for the update. And I'm glad you had a good visit in Okie... I loved this latest installment of your Tube Town Adventures... The only problem is it brings out the Tube Junkie that's I have to keep locked away because he always wants more toys! __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

04-20-2009, 06:44 PM	#115 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,886	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? There's always the taco bell sacrifice. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-22-2009, 04:10 PM	#119 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Since I have so many 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's, I've reached the conclusion that it could take months to perform all of the various tube swaps. (I think that is why I settled quickly for what is currently in my TSL122.) I did take all of the pre tubes out of my 122 and I replaced them with the following Mullards: M1, M2, M3 and M4. M3 and M4 were not as balanced as M1 and M2, but I've already read the research papers that stated you don't have to be perfect, especially on V4. It can be off balance and the amp will still work fine. Anyway, I put the two strongest Mullards in V1 and V2. The amp sounded great. A lot better than stock. It didn't have the dam breaking sensation the the ICBM and the BP had, but nonetheless it had a lot of gain. Again, this is the sound that some players would crave. The Mullards have a very wide audio spectrum and I got some low end out of these tubes without any sacrifice to the mids and high mids. Just for grins and giggles, I pulled V4 and put in a Tung-Sol USA 5751. This made a change in the amount of pre and post drive you could push through the amp. You could take the pre and push it higher and the post volume could be cranked more. This gave a more "power tube" sound when pushed to the volumes I dare not say how loud! I then pulled the 5751 and put in a brand new, NOS USA JAN 12AT7. The 5751 has a gain of 70 and the 12AT7 has a gain of 60. Putting it in made the Marshall very tame. I don't want to use the term, "Fender sounding," but it wasn't the "Marshall sound." I could twist the pre to 8 and the master volume to 6 and it had a very smooth, clean, high headroom sound to it. I then pulled V1 and V2 and put in the ICBM and the BP. Completely different sound. Not the extreme bluesbreaker sound with massive gain, but these two tubes actually defeated the lower gain characteristics of the 12AT7! I took out the 12AT7 and put in the 5751 and it was almost as if I was running a 12AX7. Finally, I put the M1 and M2 tubes in V3 and V4. Now I have four, very high gain tubes in the amp. V3 measured just a hair lower than the BP. Once again the amp had this sensation of being a 200 watt amp. It was just biting at the bit waiting to bust out of the gate. The BP adds the deeper mids to the mix and the Mullards have exceptional bell-like highs. The total sound was not like any stock Marshall I have ever played, including the 800 and 900. This is the sort of sound that a pro would demand for his onstage rig. Even the crunch channel was articulate and would point out any wrong note. Conclusion: I like the high gain sound. I have a variety of tubes that will get me there. It is very difficult trying to determine what tubes make the best sound, because they all in fact sound good. I could take two, Tung-Sol 5751's and put them in V1 and V2 with M1 and M2 in V3 and V4. What sort of sound would this produce? Probably a really nice hot-rod sound for a blues style player. Who knows, maybe it would scream heavy metal. Anyway, I may play around a little more with this amp. It has four, Siemens (West Germany) EL34's in it and they are really superior tubes to anything that is current production. I personally think that the Germans made the best EL34's. This brings up the second variable. You get the pre tubes you like and then you swap out the power tubes to see what happens to the sound. The third variable is the speakers and the type of cabinet they are in. I just bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro's. They are sort of pricey at about $300 a pair, but they are called sleeper speakers. A lot of guitarist's are using them because they are very neutral sounding (and can take a lot of power). A lot of people talk about the older Celestions getting down to 55Hz, well these go lower. You can use them as a bass or guitar speaker. The high end is around 4.8KHz. They work well in closed or open back cabinets. The fourth variable is you and how you play. I could love an amps sound playing it my way and you could come up with a sharp pick attack and say it sounds like crap. One other variable that some claim plays a part in your sound is the cables. High quality versus low quality can make a difference in the sound for both the guitar cables and the cabinet cables. Right now I am overwhelmed with the sound I am getting. Four weeks ago, I thought I had some pretty good tones happening. What a difference "one" tube can make, let alone two. My amp has never sounded this good. The tone controls almost seem "active." You bump up the mids and "Wham!" you get some mids in your face. You tweak the pre just a little and "Wham!" it makes a noticeable difference in the drive and volume. The main thing is we all know that each tube is a little different, new or old. The BP has the ballsy lows and low mids that sets it apart from the rest of the tubes. (I have many other BP's, I've just not done any tube rolling with them.) The Mullards have a well balanced tone, especially the high mids. The GE's are more smoother sounding and would be great for say a Jeff Beck sound with all of his crying notes. The 7025 is superior in V1 because it is quiet and powerful and sends this signal to the ICBM. Of course, I could pull it and replace it with the more ballsy BP. Again, this tube swapping could go on forever. I would like to hear from other forum members about their tube swapping adventures. I guess you can say I'm a hard core swapper now. Josh and Joe got me off of my butt and I started going against the norm. I thought I was pretty happy with the 7025 and three GE's in my TSL122. Now look. The tube lineup has changed and so has the sound of my amp. I'm looking forward to hearing from others and what they have ended up with. Marty "Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird?" Last edited by MartyStrat54; 04-22-2009 at 05:58 PM.

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