Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Page 27

solarburnDSL50 · 07-31-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

The first thing I will comment on is the power tubes. You are taking a chance running old power tubes. If one of them decides to "cave in" it will do some damage to the main board and possibly the transformers. I recommend that you change out the power tubes before doing anything else.

If your funds are limited, I still say change the power tubes and hold off on the other stuff I am about to say.

1960A Cab. Is it loaded with G12-75's? A better option based on your statement about "ice pick highs" would be V30's. They are a little thicker in the mid's. Personally, I do not use Celestion speakers. I use NOS JBL and Altec and new production Eminence speakers. I run a pair of Eminence Man O' War speakers in my TSL122 combo and it sounds a lot better than the original speakers. Eminence makes a speaker that I use in a Randall 212 Combo that will smooth out the top end. It is called the "Red, White and Blues" speaker. Very nice and high power handling. Eminence has three types of guitar speakers. Their original lineup (which has some damn good models), the Redcoat Series (British voiced) and the Patriot Series (American voiced). Now there are other brands of speakers, but they can get really high priced. I have found that the Eminence line up meets all of my needs.

"My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it."

If money is tight and you can't spring for all of these new toys I'm talking about, let's go straight to the preamp tubes. Your amp is one of the few that I will recommend using one or two JJ's. Out of the current production tubes, JJ's are the darkest. You may need to experiment with the tube in V1 or V2 to see which position gives the most desirable effect. I would try a Mullard long plate (CP) in V1, a JJ in V2 and V3 and a Tung-Sol short plate in V4.

Now if you were to use ANOS tubes, I would go with a medium gain Raytheon BP in V1 and a high gain Raytheon BP in V2 and then a couple of Sylvania's in V3 and V4. The Black Plates are magical tubes and they produces a more mid happy sound with an airy high end. You can get thick, crunchy power chords with these tubes. This would be a sweet setup in your 4100.

"Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound."

Again, if I had a 4100, I would change out the speakers and the preamp tubes. I know, I know...it's a lot of dough. I'm just suggesting how you could make your amp a 9.8 out of 10. I used to be a semi-pro race car driver. If you took a stock motor and put $1000 into it, it would knock 2 seconds off the quarter mile time. However, to knock another 2 seconds off requires $5000. Another two seconds $9000. You see my point? You can take a stock amp (and cab) and spend $200 on new power and preamp tubes (CP) and the amp is going to sound different (hopefully better). Or, you could buy a set of 1962 Mullard EL34's and four NOS tubes and it would sound even better, but it would cost more. Finally, you could change the speakers out in your cab. The risk here is that there are so many to choose from. The odds of spending money on four speakers and hitting the nail on the heard is slight to say the least. I just recommended the Red, White and Blues, because I have worked with Eminence and I know their product line.

My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!

Another Eminence speaker that would nail these tones is called Swamp Thang. Now I will say that the speakers I have suggested are Patriot speakers. The Redcoat Series has the Britished voiced speakers and they offer speakers that are close in sound to several Celestion speakers. However, these speakers tend to be heavy on the bright side. The Man O' War speakers that I run are not the hottest high end speakers. There are several models with more top end. Believe me, I get all the top end I want. I usually run the high EQ at 4 or 5.

If you are low on cash, but want to try NOS tubes, just send me a PM and I will give you some options. Feel free to contact me about any tube/speaker issues. I will be glad to help.

MARTY

Not to add a bunch of stuff to Marty's post but one other speaker choice that has a restrained top end is the GK100's. These have and a deep lowend, smooth but present mids and the restrained topend. They are not scooped at all. I have a pair and you can play blues, rock, hardrock and even modern metal with them. Lot of players are pairing them up with V30's in an X pattern 412.

Just wanted to interject this because it would help the ice pick highs of which I hate as well.

MartyStrat54 · 07-31-2009, 03:05 PM

Boy, just when I think I'm the only one posting, I get done with a post and when I hit the "Submit Reply" icon, I find out a whole bunch of stuff has been posted. Man are you guys sneaky. How do you do it?

I can't wait to hear if the GE's work out well. Remember, you may have to swap them around for the best results.

As usual, Joe is piddling around with an AT7. "Hey Joe! How about a 12AY7?" That will shave some gain off. No really, an AT7 in V3 and/or V4 is not going to be that noticeable and I would say that an AT7 in V3 will help make the clean channel more clean...if that is possible. As I said, I know hi fi freaks that use AT7's in the front stage of their tube amps. It gives the amp a very quiet signal to the second stage and then to the power tubes. Very nice!

Well I have some stuff to do. I'll check back later and maybe two more pages will have been added.

RiverRatt · 07-31-2009, 04:23 PM

My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.

MartyStrat54 · 07-31-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.

Can I go??? I'll pay my own way. The last time I was there in Nashville, I was overwhelmed by the amount of used gear for sale. The pawn shops were loaded with (a s**t load of Peavey gear, go figure). All them hopes, dreams and aspirations gone down the tube and the gear gets sold for a bus ticket home. Tisk, tisk!

On the other hand, Nashville (and especially Memphis) has seen the ole crime rate go through the roof. Felony crime is way up. Did I say muggings?

On a better note, please feel free to post about your AT7 findings. I am going to be helping LesPaulopolis with his 900. It has a lot of high end I want to smooth out. I'm thinking a medium gain BP in V1 with a high gain BP in V2. This should give a more pronounced, tighter midrange and a smooth top end. However, maybe an AT7 in V3 would fortify this? Just a thought.

Keep me posted, as I'm sure this place will be buzzing soon with new found information.

solarburnDSL50 · 07-31-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.

1. Yes on taming the treble frequency. I thought it sounded a bit warmer after I put it in.

2. Punch? Possibly but I need to go back and forth a few times with an AX7 to see.

3. I to think I hear a lil' more compression or tightning and that may be translating into more punch. Not sure yet...

I still need a few more back and forth sessions. Keep me posted on what you find after cranking it.

solarburnDSL50 · 07-31-2009, 06:02 PM

Since you guys can't see my face, I have a big ole' grin on it. Why you ask?

Cause I have 2 NOS MM tubes that came in the mail. MM you wonder?

Martimus Maximus tubes which have been tested and blessed by the Manimal himself!

I am to have a collection of NOS tubes like a cellar of fine wines aging to perfection. Moy buente!

Many thanks to the man of fine tastes and generous disposition. You know who you are!

I do the dancing now!

MartyStrat54 · 07-31-2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Not to add a bunch of stuff to Marty's post but one other speaker choice that has a restrained top end is the GK100's. These have and a deep lowend, smooth but present mids and the restrained topend. They are not scooped at all. I have a pair and you can play blues, rock, hardrock and even modern metal with them. Lot of players are pairing them up with V30's in an X pattern 412.

Just wanted to interject this because it would help the ice pick highs of which I hate as well.

Imagine if there was a forum where you could go to that you could put any speaker into any cab and have a certain style of music played through any amp you desired? That would be one huge website!!! Cool thought anyway.

Yeah the problem with speakers is there are so many of them. Have you ever looked at just the Celestion catalog? They make a lot more speakers than you think. Eminence is huge and then there are Wharfdale/VOX and Tone Tubby and the list is very long. Oh, let's not forget vintage speakers like JBL, Altec and EV. Then there is B and C and RCF. God, I could keep going on. It would be nice to pick the exact speakers that you needed, but I don't think it happens that often. When you buy speakers, you own them, you can't take them back. "Oh, I thought that these would give me some good bottom end. They sound flabby and I want to return them." "Go away kid, you're bothering me." When I took the Wolverines out of the 602's, I knew anything would sound better than them. I didn't even bother to try and sell them on EBAY. I had an expensive pair out of my TSL122 that I sold on EBAY and I only made 80 bucks off of them. What does that tell you?

I have used a lot of Eminence speakers, so I have a good feel for what they do. I do have some 10 and 12-inch B and C speakers that are high end, cast frame, high watt models. I've been experimenting with the Eminence Delta Pro 12A. It has the ability to be used as either a bass or guitar speaker. It has a massive 300 watts of power handling. It is a neutral speaker. You get your tone from your amp. It is heavy, but it does a lot of things really well. I would compare it to a JBL E-120.

A lot of speakers add a lot of coloration to the overall sound. Some have a peak at 4K making them in some cases harsh. A lot of guitar speakers have a big peak around 2K. This puts a bite on the mids. The Delta Pro 12A is a flat response speaker. It could be used in a PA system where flat response is a must. I've tried it in several cabs and I'm really impressed. Too bad it weighs so much. Four of these would give you a 1200 watt cab and you would need a crane to lift it. Maybe the perfect speaker for a permanent backline.

Well, I got off on this speaker tangent and I'm sorry. I need to keep focused on tubes and tube talk. Sometimes the old man just fizzles out. "Where's my rocking chair and a cold beer!"

I'm sure that there are others that will be able to come up with new tube topics. I look forward to hearing from you.

joshuaaewallen · 07-31-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

...No, this has something to do with me, but then again it doesn't. It is more about us then me. Don't you just love riddles?

I guarantee that you will get it. Get it?

MARTY

Sooo cryptic. I think we are all wondering exactly what mushrooms Marty found and where we can get some! Wow.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Since you guys can't see my face, I have a big ole' grin on it. Why you ask?

Cause I have 2 NOS MM tubes that came in the mail. MM you wonder?

Martimus Maximus tubes which have been tested and blessed by the Manimal himself!

I am to have a collection of NOS tubes like a cellar of fine wines aging to perfection. Moy buente!

Many thanks to the man of fine tastes and generous disposition. You know who you are!

I do the dancing now!

Well... Now we know why The Main Man Marty was being sooo mysterious...

Imagine my surprise to arrive home and find a small package sitting on my doorstep. Like any married man my first thought was, "Now what did she buy?" But wait... What have we here? Something from Marty? Hmm... Suffice to say there was little time wasted getting in the door to open this mysterious parcel. And inside... Lovingly packaged in a bed of foam peanuts... Can you guess? I'd wager my good friend Solar has an idea... Yes, I too am beneficiary of the generosity of the The Marshall Forum's very own Obiwan Kenobi... <In case ya hadn't guessed I'm talking about Marty here>...

And without further adue...

Ok... I've run out what my own childish mind thinks are clever, pithy, things to say, so... Holy Crap Marty! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest!

And there was much rejoicing!

solarburnDSL50 · 07-31-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Can I go??? I'll pay my own way. The last time I was there in Nashville, I was overwhelmed by the amount of used gear for sale. The pawn shops were loaded with (a s**t load of Peavey gear, go figure). All them hopes, dreams and aspirations gone down the tube and the gear gets sold for a bus ticket home. Tisk, tisk!

On the other hand, Nashville (and especially Memphis) has seen the ole crime rate go through the roof. Felony crime is way up. Did I say muggings?

On a better note, please feel free to post about your AT7 findings. I am going to be helping LesPaulopolis with his 900. It has a lot of high end I want to smooth out. I'm thinking a medium gain BP in V1 with a high gain BP in V2. This should give a more pronounced, tighter midrange and a smooth top end. However, maybe an AT7 in V3 would fortify this? Just a thought.

Keep me posted, as I'm sure this place will be buzzing soon with new found information.

MARTY

I just put the 22-23 BP in V1 and the 27-26 BP in V2. Left the AT7 in V3. Warm as hell man. Nice round tone. I think with the lowend and nice lower mids of the BP's it will smooth the highend by themselves. Have to say with the AT7 in V3 I really believe it is adding warmness as well and the clean is even rounder sounding.

IMO the BP's will smoke the JJ's especially for the lower mids that you'd want for hardrock. The RFT's would too. At least the JJ's are cheaper and can save a guy some money.

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on JJ's either. Lots of guys like em' in their Marshall's and I believe these guys when they say they get good tone while using JJ's. Like Marty stated they can tame a toppy amp.

MartyStrat54 · 07-31-2009, 08:52 PM

Well now that the candles have been blown out on the birthday cake, I guess we can all relax and take a deep breath and tell ourselves that life can be good.

Joe, if you look at your tubes, I think there is several rows of numbers. If both of your tubes say 26 or 62, they are 1962 tubes.

Josh, I noticed that one of your tubes came out of a different lot and it appears to be a 1959 model.

Nonetheless, these are top notched BP's and can go anywhere, but I thought that you guys would like some premium V3 and V4 tubes. I know it's tough running these kind of tubes in those positions, but you do with them what you see fit. Keep them as upgrade spares. Use them as V1 and V2. Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.

Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun.

Martimus Maximus

joshuaaewallen · 07-31-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.

Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun...=

Gotta hand it to ya Marty... After the 24.5% cut in pay I took this week... This really shed a nice warm ray of sunshine on my day today. Thanks mate! I really sincerely mean it. Thanks.

MartyStrat54 · 07-31-2009, 08:59 PM

And then it happened. Rain started to fall. Dogs were barking and babies were being born naked. The wise one stomped his staff in the ground. He was furious, because the tube guru, Martimus Maximus had stolen his thunder. Tubes he cried out. Them damn blasted tubes. Weeping, he turned and entered his cave never to be seen again.

Yeah baby, the wait is over and both packages arrived on the same day. How do I do it. With smoke and mirrors.

Weeping, uncontrollable laughter and dancing in the privacy of one's home. These were the words of the prophets and they all came to pass.

Martimus Maximus

joshuaaewallen · 07-31-2009, 09:03 PM

solarburnDSL50 · 08-01-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well now that the candles have been blown out on the birthday cake, I guess we can all relax and take a deep breath and tell ourselves that life can be good.

Joe, if you look at your tubes, I think there is several rows of numbers. If both of your tubes say 26 or 62, they are 1962 tubes.

Josh, I noticed that one of your tubes came out of a different lot and it appears to be a 1959 model.

Nonetheless, these are top notched BP's and can go anywhere, but I thought that you guys would like some premium V3 and V4 tubes. I know it's tough running these kind of tubes in those positions, but you do with them what you see fit. Keep them as upgrade spares. Use them as V1 and V2. Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.

Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun.

Martimus Maximus

I'll put em' in there and see how they sound. Have'n a great time Martimus!

MartyStrat54 · 08-01-2009, 01:01 AM

Went to the bar and knocked down a few brews and ate a bunch of hot wings and a huge bacon cheeseburger. As usual, I ate a lot of fresh red onions. Tried to go to sleep, but to no avail. I took some Alka-Seltzer and I am letting that do its magic.

Damn Joe, I sometimes think you never go to sleep, but I understand you have the joint all to yourself and it sounds like you've been having some fun. Say "Hello" to the cops for me.

Yeah, just out of curiosity, put your 7025 and V2 back in and try the BP's in V3 and V4. Also, switch them around to see if that makes much of a difference having the stronger tube in V3 or V4. My ear tells me that the stronger tube will go in V3 and the other BP will be at home in the PI slot. Now I don't expect you to keep it that way, but I'm just curious about how it will sound.

Also, I will be doing a little business with LesPaulopolis and would you agree that a couple of BP's in V1 and V2 of the 900 should smooth out the top end?

I just feel this is the route to take with the 900 versus the 7025 and a stout V2. I mean, I would probably send him a 25-26 and a 30-31. That should blow the cobs out. What do you think after testing the BP's? Your conclusions are exactly as mine. My tests with the BP's showed that they tended to give a warmer, more rounded tone in the clean channel, but boy can they dish out the Captain Crunch. Nice fat crunchy chords. Anyway, I think this is the way to go with the 900. If he doesn't like the sound, he can send them back and we can go to Plan B, the 7025 and a Mullard.

I have the luxury of having select V1's and V2's in my amps, but I also run nice tubes for V3 and V4. When you got a lot of tubes, you want the best in your amps. The Sylvania's have always been one of my favorites and I usually put Sylvania's in V3 and V4. Check this out. I am going to bid on some rare 12AX7A-7025 Sylvania's. I hope I can win them. These are long gray plate NIB/NOS. Sweet!

Anyway, I know that you have some great tubes. Better than a lot of players who use stock and think they have something. NOS tubes are fun to use, because they make the amp sound so damn good. I'll never stop using them.

Martimus Maximus

solarburnDSL50 · 08-01-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Went to the bar and knocked down a few brews and ate a bunch of hot wings and a huge bacon cheeseburger. As usual, I ate a lot of fresh red onions. Tried to go to sleep, but to no avail. I took some Alka-Seltzer and I am letting that do its magic.

Damn Joe, I sometimes think you never go to sleep, but I understand you have the joint all to yourself and it sounds like you've been having some fun. Say "Hello" to the cops for me.

Yeah, just out of curiosity, put your 7025 and V2 back in and try the BP's in V3 and V4. Also, switch them around to see if that makes much of a difference having the stronger tube in V3 or V4. My ear tells me that the stronger tube will go in V3 and the other BP will be at home in the PI slot. Now I don't expect you to keep it that way, but I'm just curious about how it will sound.

Also, I will be doing a little business with LesPaulopolis and would you agree that a couple of BP's in V1 and V2 of the 900 should smooth out the top end?

I just feel this is the route to take with the 900 versus the 7025 and a stout V2. I mean, I would probably send him a 25-26 and a 30-31. That should blow the cobs out. What do you think after testing the BP's? Your conclusions are exactly as mine. My tests with the BP's showed that they tended to give a warmer, more rounded tone in the clean channel, but boy can they dish out the Captain Crunch. Nice fat crunchy chords. Anyway, I think this is the way to go with the 900. If he doesn't like the sound, he can send them back and we can go to Plan B, the 7025 and a Mullard.

I have the luxury of having select V1's and V2's in my amps, but I also run nice tubes for V3 and V4. When you got a lot of tubes, you want the best in your amps. The Sylvania's have always been one of my favorites and I usually put Sylvania's in V3 and V4. Check this out. I am going to bid on some rare 12AX7A-7025 Sylvania's. I hope I can win them. These are long gray plate NIB/NOS. Sweet!

Anyway, I know that you have some great tubes. Better than a lot of players who use stock and think they have something. NOS tubes are fun to use, because they make the amp sound so damn good. I'll never stop using them.

Martimus Maximus

You know this is my day time although I'm on my day off and have been up all day. Prolly go to sleep here in a couple hours.

Regarding the BP's in V1 & V2 I think it would be a great way to start out taming the ice picks but still having that hardrock smack to the gain. Man the clean with the strat is so warm and round. The kind of sensual tones that slide panties off I'm sure of it. All kidding aside though it really is toneful and lush. I'm very pleased.

I'll do the BP's in 3 & 4 tomorrow and see how it sounds.

Now I want a Bacon Cheese burger...

pal670 · 08-01-2009, 05:57 AM

Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference.
Also what tube would you recommend that I try?

MartyStrat54 · 08-01-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pal670

Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference.
Also what tube would you recommend that I try?

Hello PAL: I'm not real familiar with the AVT, but I would assume that there are some screws on the back panel to take out. I don't know if the single tube has a shield or not. If it does, take care to twist it off to get to the tube. If there is no shield, pull the tube out and take note of the pin orientation. As you should already know, there is a wide gap between pins #1 and #9. When you're ready to install the Tung-Sol, put the tube in the same position as it came out and gently apply pressure until it goes back in. You may have to slightly twist the tube to the left or right, but the main thing is to use the right amount of pressure or else you can bend the pins or worse, break the glass.

The Tung-Sol gold pin is a pretty sweet sounding tube and should work well in your AVT150.

Good luck and thanks for dropping in.

MartyStrat54 · 08-01-2009, 04:12 PM

Was doing a little cruzing on the web and came across another long report on a variety of tubes. It talks about some of the things I mentioned a while back, such as military planes that still use tubes.

It goes into the run down of where tubes are made and who relabels them. It also states which relabeled tubes are the better buys. For one thing, I did not know that MESA was making the 12AX7M in California. That's a new one on me.

Towards the end, it has some hyperlinks that take you to tube comparisons and characteristics. I'm sorry that it is so long. Not that bad, but still long.

guitargeek: Tube Buyers Guide - REPOST

I was actually looking for info on the history of Black Plate tube. I used Dogpile as a search engine and I tried numerous search words. Never found anything.

solarburnDSL50 · 08-01-2009, 04:58 PM

Ok. I did the stronger BP in V3 and the lower value in the PI. This sounded a hair warmer on the clean channel. I switched them around and found it was really close but maybe a smidge of lowend went away. Both were very close and could go either way. Me I'd take the warmer version but who knows...Maybe the ears are trick'n me.

I think I need a tube roll'n rest and try again after my ears have had a break. I just got back from jamm'n with a friend so my ears are pretty fatigued right now.

I'll get back to it later. I've got to take a nap now cause I have to work tonight so i will catch up with you guys some time later.

MartyStrat54 · 08-01-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Ok. I did the stronger BP in V3 and the lower value in the PI. This sounded a hair warmer on the clean channel. I switched them around and found it was really close but maybe a smidge of lowend went away. Both were very close and could go either way. Me I'd take the warmer version but who knows...Maybe the ears are trick'n me.

I think I need a tube roll'n rest and try again after my ears have had a break. I just got back from jamm'n with a friend so my ears are pretty fatigued right now.

I'll get back to it later. I've got to take a nap now cause I have to work tonight so i will catch up with you guys some time later.

Yeah, I knew it would be tough trying to judge those tube positions. I could probably have you walk out of the room and replace V3 and V4 with a couple of Slyvania's and have you come back in and try to tell me if the BP's were still in the amp. It just goes to show that V3 and V4 are a whole lot more accommodating than V1 and V2. You can stick a AT7 in V3 and I probably wouldn't know it unless somebody told me. You could stick a 20-20 12AX7 in the PI slot and it would sound just fine. However, we all know that you can't do that with V1 and V2.

Joe, no need to bust a nut on this. I think what you did is good enough. I had tried various situations and I found that V3 will alter the "tone" slightly and V4 seems to alter the overall "dynamics." However, it is very subtle.

This is just another reason to use CP tubes in these positions and save your best tubes for spares for V1 and V2. I think if your amp has NOS in V1 and V2 and two Electro-Harmonix in V3 and V4, the old Marty Manimal might not be able to tell.

Anyway Joe, thanks for your testing. I wanted to see how it stacked up to mine and our findings are mutual. I think two BP's in the 900 is the way to go.

solarburnDSL50 · 08-01-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Yeah, I knew it would be tough trying to judge those tube positions. I could probably have you walk out of the room and replace V3 and V4 with a couple of Slyvania's and have you come back in and try to tell me if the BP's were still in the amp. It just goes to show that V3 and V4 are a whole lot more accommodating than V1 and V2. You can stick a AT7 in V3 and I probably wouldn't know it unless somebody told me. You could stick a 20-20 12AX7 in the PI slot and it would sound just fine. However, we all know that you can't do that with V1 and V2.

Joe, no need to bust a nut on this. I think what you did is good enough. I had tried various situations and I found that V3 will alter the "tone" slightly and V4 seems to alter the overall "dynamics." However, it is very subtle.

This is just another reason to use CP tubes in these positions and save your best tubes for spares for V1 and V2. I think if your amp has NOS in V1 and V2 and two Electro-Harmonix in V3 and V4, the old Marty Manimal might not be able to tell.

Anyway Joe, thanks for your testing. I wanted to see how it stacked up to mine and our findings are mutual. I think two BP's in the 900 is the way to go.

+ 10 to all of that!

Landshark · 08-02-2009, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

If you want to keep a nice full sounding clean channel and have more gain on tap w/ your crunch and lead channels, I would highly reccemend a mid gain 7025 in V1, and a high gain 12AX7 in V2. I have this set up in my TSL122 and it is sweeeeeeet. Not only is my clean channel warm and full, but my crunch channel is classic rock. My Lead channel has TONS of gain, but I can still roll back the guitar's volume and have everything from screaming, to crunch, to clean. This is a very sweet, and very versitile setup.

Alright here's a question I'm sure everyone will enjoy... What are some pros/ cons of using nos in V1 and V2 and then using some CP high gainers in V3 and V4? Since I have no NOS to mess with at the current moment I'm asking cause I can't find out on my own yet. That 2 gallon can of change in the corner is almost full and promises great things in the future... I just need a little direction

joshuaaewallen · 08-02-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landshark

Alright here's a question I'm sure everyone will enjoy... What are some pros/ cons of using nos in V1 and V2 and then using some CP high gainers in V3 and V4? Since I have no NOS to mess with at the current moment I'm asking cause I can't find out on my own yet. That 2 gallon can of change in the corner is almost full and promises great things in the future... I just need a little direction

Prior to my current tube line-up, I tried every tube I had access to, ranging from some NOS to current production tubes in all four positions. As we have already discussed, V1 & V2 definitely proved to be the most critical. However, it is interesting to note that from among the tubes I had at the time (after falling completely in love w/ the 7025 & 12AX7 in V1&2 slots) I actually found that I like the two JJ's in V3 & V4 the best. Who'd have thunk it? Now I will say that my current tube selection has improved significantly, and since I am totally in love w/ my current sound, I am really only looking to experiment w/ V3 & V4 (not because I am unhappy w/ my sound, but...) because I am looking for that sweet little bit of extra icing on the cake. My point? Even though I am confident that NOS tubes really are better in probably every respect, CP tubes are, in general, just fine and dandy for V3 & V4, and really like all things musical it just boils down to what sounds best to your ears.

MartyStrat54 · 08-02-2009, 01:27 PM

What Josh said is correct and of course there is more about this in the above posts and also throughout this massive thread.

V1 and V2 is where you want to put NOS tubes in place. These have the biggest effect on tone and gain. V3 and V4 can be almost anything. We have even experimented with high gainers in V3 and V4 and they only make a little difference over regular gain tubes. So if you bought a couple of NOS tubes for V1 and V2, you could use your existing high gainers in V3 and V4. Not a problem.

MartyStrat54 · 08-02-2009, 04:26 PM

Well I guess it had to happen sometime. I was looking at tubes on EBAY and came across a "company" that was selling 4 lots of 12AX7's under the name of "Tone Packs." All they are doing is taking odds and ends 12AX7's and trying to sell them as a way to achieve that ultimate tone. I looked at some of the tubes and they barely passed the "good" test. I guess these would be your V3 and V4. Anyway, I thought it was sort of comical, you know, "Tone Pack!"

The name of the company is called: rz350isthebest.

joshuaaewallen · 08-02-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well I guess it had to happen sometime. I was looking at tubes on EBAY and came across a "company" that was selling 4 lots of 12AX7's under the name of "Tone Packs." All they are doing is taking odds and ends 12AX7's and trying to sell them as a way to achieve that ultimate tone. I looked at some of the tubes and they barely passed the "good" test. I guess these would be your V3 and V4. Anyway, I thought it was sort of comical, you know, "Tone Pack!"

The name of the company is called: rz350isthebest.

Stop The Insanity!!!

MartyStrat54 · 08-02-2009, 06:06 PM

Well this is sort of like the wholesalers that had a bunch of RFT EL34's for sale, but you had to use them in amps under 450V. What sort of manure is that? It's a great tube. It's a fabulous tube. It's a B-Stock tube.

Yeah. Now we have bozo's taking four odd ball tubes and selling them as a tone pack. What if the tone sounds like shittah? "Oh, we don't offer refunds. We thought that you would be happy with these old tubes that we can't sell by themselves, because no one would buy them." I mean some of them are on the verge of being labeled "worn out."

The bottom line is there are people out there trying to find ways to sell old or B-Stock tubes to the audio public. They aren't going to say, "Past their prime," or "Easy on the voltage." They are going to get some sucker to pay good money for plain old crapola. Lucky for you guys that I don't deal in crapola.

WE DON'T NEED CRAPOLA!!!

solarburnDSL50 · 08-02-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well this is sort of like the wholesalers that had a bunch of RFT EL34's for sale, but you had to use them in amps under 450V. What sort of manure is that? It's a great tube. It's a fabulous tube. It's a B-Stock tube.

Yeah. Now we have bozo's taking four odd ball tubes and selling them as a tone pack. What if the tone sounds like shittah? "Oh, we don't offer refunds. We thought that you would be happy with these old tubes that we can't sell by themselves, because no one would buy them." I mean some of them are on the verge of being labeled "worn out."

The bottom line is there are people out there trying to find ways to sell old or B-Stock tubes to the audio public. They aren't going to say, "Past their prime," or "Easy on the voltage." They are going to get some sucker to pay good money for plain old crapola. Lucky for you guys that I don't deal in crapola.

WE DON'T NEED CRAPOLA!!!

That just ain't right. Yeah we know why they come with the 450 and under warning. Cheat'n bastids! Alot of people don't though...sad cause those are some nice tubes when they are fully charged.

Make a buck get the heck outa here. That's what the no refund policy amounts to.

Landshark · 08-03-2009, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

What Josh said is correct and of course there is more about this in the above posts and also throughout this massive thread.

V1 and V2 is where you want to put NOS tubes in place. These have the biggest effect on tone and gain. V3 and V4 can be almost anything. We have even experimented with high gainers in V3 and V4 and they only make a little difference over regular gain tubes. So if you bought a couple of NOS tubes for V1 and V2, you could use your existing high gainers in V3 and V4. Not a problem.

Might it be most prudent then to get a couple tubes from you Marty rather then catch a bum deal from someone on ebay? How might I go about doing that?

07-31-2009, 04:23 PM	#783 (permalink)
RiverRatt Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Memphis and Nashville Posts: 925	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.

07-31-2009, 09:03 PM	#793 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ http://irkinempireoutpost1977.blogspot.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

08-01-2009, 05:57 AM	#797 (permalink)
pal670 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference. Also what tube would you recommend that I try?

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