Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Page 20

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Cool. Thanks for the info. I just woke up. You guys have been busy here.

I pm'd back where I had seen that said about the RFT's. Just wasn't any info to why? Looks like the RFT's are within range of actually buying compared to some of those others...when buying at online dealers. I would do it once on the RFT's just to see. The others are out of my buying zone hehe.

And thanks for the great deals man. I saw that price on the Ratheon BP's and I was like shiat! Some of the other tubes I bought too. I wouldn't have tried them out at those prices. Just would have taken a pass.

Got word back from one of my wholesalers. Seems that these EL34's that can only take a certain amount (450V) of voltage are in fact "B-stock" tubes. Here is the response I received.

Hi Marty,

The RFT EL34 meets all EL34 specifications, including the maximum plate voltage of 800V. While I match the tubes at 500V, I put in excess of 600V on the plates as part of my shorts test. Around 5% of the RFTs fail this test, but test good otherwise. Rather than write these tubes off as rejects, perhaps some vendors prefer to sell as much of their stock as possible -- hence the 450V caveat. In any event, your tubes carry a full 90 day warranty, irrespective of the plate voltage of your amp (assuming, of course, that the tubes were correctly biased upon installation.)

Thanks again!

So, tube sellers who are wanting to sell each and every tube are doing so by telling the buyer, "Hey, don't go over 450." Most guitar amps are right at and just above 450. The TSL60,1 and 2 run at 500V. What is happening is the tube is shorting out internally. Not a good thing and very hard on an output tranny and it leaves a question on whether the tube will fail at 400V? There's no way I would buy a quad of these. I'm sure they are discounted, but that doesn't matter to me.

Well, I guess this solves the mystery. It was just a case of the "B-stock" did it.

zimske · 07-06-2009, 06:29 PM

Yeah, I figured as much, and what's making it worse, they seem to be respectable lot in amp tech business. Got to them through recommendations of some serious fellas and they drop this load of bull just like that.

Anyway.

It's '84 jcm800 2203, and I planned on placing TS in V1, Penta in V2 and use Sovtek for PI. If I remember well, that's somewhere along the line of what solarburn was talking way back.

Now, Doug told me he can grade any 12ax7 for lower or higher gain. Okay. That's cool, actually. But, is something similar even remotely possible with output tubes? Or do you get them as they are and that's that? Uh, I should just stop trying to understand those two guys. Ngh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

They're boneheads, I'm sorry to inform you of that.

Yes, the power tubes need to be biased. It's nice that they are matched, that just means that they will bias easier. Why these guys told you that is beyond comprehension, unless they wanted your amp to blow so they would get the work.

Glad you got your tubes. What position were you going to use the Tung-Sol in? Don't use it in V3. They been failing in that position. What amp are these tubes going into? If it has 4 preamp tubes, then use caution with the TS in V3.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 10:38 PM

I think you are cool with that lineup of 12AX7's.

As far as power tubes go, there are several factors that affect them. One is plate resistance. They also have a window in which they will bias properly. Some fall at the low end of the window and others at the high end and some in the middle. This gives what is called a cool, medium or hot tube. The transconductance of the tube is its strength. When you measure a tube on a tube tester you are measuring transconductance. Generally you want the tubes to read over 90 and you want them to be somewhat close so that they will bias properly. Say you have a set that is 92-90-94-91. That is a nice set and will bias up nicely. If you have a set like 89-97-83-86, you will be able to bias the tubes but one or more of the tubes will be passing more current than its counterpart and that means one or more of the tubes will wear out before the others. Most good tube sellers match their power tubes to within 3 per cent of each other and that is plenty close.

So as far as power tubes go, each tube has a certain amount of resistance, a certain window in regard to how it will bias and transconductance or strength.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 07-06-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimske

woohoo finally!
week worth of waiting and here! they! are!

ruby el34b str (it was a tie between them and tung sols el34b, then doug untied it for me)
tung sol 12ax7
pentalab 12ax7b
sovtek 12ax7lps

can't wait to plug them in my 2203. oh oh.
guys, thanks for everything, will let you know how it works as soon as humanly possible.

[one more thing, however... i've just called my tech and he told me it is not necessary to bias the amp becaus tubes are matched? i've phoned another tech and he told me the same. wtf? EVERYWHERE i've been to read about biasing says that when changing the output tubes, bias is a must. mustly must. wtf with these two techs?. :/]

update: called two more techs which say, of course, bias is a must.
wtf with these four techs?

Yes bias those tubes. Always do so when changing them. Now the guys who say to bias out number the boneheads telling you don't.

Doug suggested the LPS in the PI right? You really don't want that tube in a cathode follower(V3 in my amp)either. In the PI position it is a great tube.

How many preamp tubes in the 2203?

Edit: I see I am not writing fast enough..hehe.

solarburnDSL50 · 07-06-2009, 10:47 PM

As far as the power tubes having different grades of distortion, it means that they can have earlier or later break up time. Doug's offer this with their power tubes as a choice. He labels them early distortion, average distortion and late distortion. It has nothing to do with having more gain. Just "when" the gain happens.

This means you can get more clean headroom from the tubes graded as later distortion.

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 10:56 PM

Hey Sun Burn, I left you a PM.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 07-06-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Hey Sun Burn, I left you a PM.

Marty

I left you one back!

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

As far as the power tubes having different grades of distortion, it means that they can have earlier or later break up times. Doug's offer this with their power tubes as a choice. He labels them early distortion, average distortion and late distortion. It has nothing to do with having more gain. Just "when" the gain happens.

This means you can get more clean headroom from the tubes graded as later distortion.

I got into a discussion about this and I'm not all that crazy about it. Several companies offer tube ratings like this and I think it is more of a sales gimmick than anything else. Tubes grouped with the same or similar electrical characteristics is one thing, but saying one tube has a "soft" vacuum and another has a "hard" is a little funky as far as I'm concerned. A soft vacuum means the tube didn't get a proper vacuum pulled on it in the first place and as far as I'm concerned, it should be a reject. Soft vacuum tubes are hard on the inner workings of the tube and prone to early failure.

Note: Did you ever hear of RCA, Mullard or Amperex (to name a few) selling power tubes with soft or hard vacuums? No! They pulled a consistent vacuum on their entire run. If it was such a great idea, why didn't any of the big tube makers advertise this? Because it wasn't a good idea.

Just my input. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 07-06-2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

I got into a discussion about this and I'm not all that crazy about it. Several companies offer tube ratings like this and I think it is more of a sales gimmick than anything else. Tubes grouped with the same or similar electrical characteristics is one thing, but saying one tube has a "soft" vacuum and another has a "hard" is a little funky as far as I'm concerned. A soft vacuum means the tube didn't get a proper vacuum pulled on it in the first place and as far as I'm concerned, it should be a reject. Soft vacuum tubes are hard on the inner workings of the tube and prone to early failure.

Note: Did you ever hear of RCA, Mullard or Amperex (to name a few) selling power tubes with soft or hard vacuums? No! They pulled a consistent vacuum on their entire run. If it was such a great idea, why didn't any of the big tube makers advertise this? Because it wasn't a good idea.

Just my input. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Marty

I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.

Just order the average distortion which is the norm.

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.

Just order the average distortion which is the norm.

Well if you have good preamp tubes and a good amp and a good guitar with decent pickups, you should be able to get that mutha screaming like a banshee!

Give me a set of stock NOS EL34's and they will blow away anything that is made right now.

Marty-I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'.

solarburnDSL50 · 07-06-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well if you have good preamp tubes and a good amp and a good guitar with decent pickups, you should be able to get that mutha screaming like a banshee!

Give me a set of stock NOS EL34's and they will blow away anything that is made right now.

Marty-I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'.

MartyStrat54 · 07-06-2009, 11:49 PM

Well, I guess this sort of turned into:

"Power Tubes?-Who, What, When, Where, Why and How?"

I also found out that you can post a whole bunch of stuff when Solar Burn is off work and online.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 12:12 AM

Have you ever wondered how many tubes JJ (and others like Sovtek) throws away each month? I'll bet it is a huge number. All the tubes that didn't make it. Then the tubes go to the next level of quality control and more fail. Supposedly they do a long burn in period and more tubes fail. They end up with several thousand tubes to sell each month. Out of these a huge percentage fail once they are put in a guitar amp and subjected to the rigors of being moved on and off a stage and put in a van and driving 100 miles on a bumpy road to get back home.

I'm reading about more and more tube failures and it is the tube that failed, not something wrong with the amp that made the tube fail.

I'll be keeping my eyes open on the other tube forums I visit and will post anything that is significant.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 07-07-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Have you ever wondered how many tubes JJ (and others like Sovtek) throws away each month? I'll bet it is a huge number. All the tubes that didn't make it. Then the tubes go to the next level of quality control and more fail. Supposedly they do a long burn in period and more tubes fail. They end up with several thousand tubes to sell each month. Out of these a huge percentage fail once they are put in a guitar amp and subjected to the rigors of being moved on and off a stage and put in a van and driving 100 miles on a bumpy road to get back home.

I'm reading about more and more tube failures and it is the tube that failed, not something wrong with the amp that made the tube fail.

I'll be keeping my eyes open on the other tube forums I visit and will post anything that is significant.

Marty

If you go over to HCAF and post you like JJ tubes you will find yourself a minority. Exact opposite of here. Now I won't bash tubes any more cause if you like JJ's to me that is a preference and I have to respect that. I just say now I prefer other tubes.

The one thing that is important to note is what Marty is saying about tube failure. That has nothing to do with how they sound. JJ's have a bad track record in many circles around the net.

Well bro's I gots to go to work. I'll talk at you all later!

zimske · 07-07-2009, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.

Just order the average distortion which is the norm.

that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall.

anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:

12AV7 AMPEREX
12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
12AU7WA GE
12AT7WA GE

this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
seems a bit much, don't you think?

solarburnDSL50 · 07-07-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimske

that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall.

anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:

12AV7 AMPEREX
12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
12AU7WA GE
12AT7WA GE

this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
seems a bit much, don't you think?

We're talking about the power tubes being sold with early distortion, average distortion and late distortion options. Not buying into that.

Lower gain preamp tubes are a good way to alter the gain if that is what you want. Nothing wrong with doing it with the right tubes.

RiverRatt · 07-07-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

We're talking about the power tubes being sold with early distortion, average distortion and late distortion options. Not buying into that.

Lower gain preamp tubes are a good way to alter the gain if that is what you want. Nothing wrong with doing it with the right tubes.

We had a discussion about this in another thread (or forum?) about the rating system that Groove Tubes and others use. I believe that the general consensus was that if you bias the tubes to the same percentage of max dissipation, there is no difference in the tubes.

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

We had a discussion about this in another thread (or forum?) about the rating system that Groove Tubes and others use. I believe that the general consensus was that if you bias the tubes to the same percentage of max dissipation, there is no difference in the tubes.

First off, when you are a company that "buys" all of the tubes you sell, you are going to have a marketing department. These are the guys who come up with all of these zany gimmicks to get novice tube buyers to bite. "Smooth distortion, hard distortion." "Soft vacuum, hard vacuum." "Pick your sound only when you buy from us." Good grief! It puts a knot in my throat.

As I said ^^^up above^^^, I wouldn't want a power tube with a soft vacuum. You're asking for trouble. People are so easily persuaded into believing what some retailer has to say. "Best sound," "Early overdrive," "Fat sustain." Sounds good doesn't it? If you know little about tubes, chances are you will fall prey to this sort of marketing hype. The sad fact is that none of their tubes will come close to beating NOS tubes.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimske

that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall.

anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:

12AV7 AMPEREX
12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
12AU7WA GE
12AT7WA GE

this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
seems a bit much, don't you think?

Is the Raytheon supposed to be 5751? It makes a big difference. I've never heard of a 5755. Anyway, these are all low to medium gain twin triodes. A 5751 or a 12AT7 in V1 will knock the gain down and the amp will have more clean headroom aka more Fenderish sounding. Some people like that and I say if you do, buy a Fender. Marshall's were made for tonal onslaught and your amp deserves the right tubes. Try to buy several high gain USA NOS tubes like 12AX7A's. RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon, GE, etc. These are the tubes that will turn your amp around. Expect to pay around $20 to $25 each. Try to get the best tube you can afford, as it will last longer. Try to find a tube that is being sold as NOS. If you don't have a tube tester or access to one, then you are going to have to rely on the seller's reputation.

I suggest staying away from these tubes unless the Raytheon is a 12AX7.

Marty

RiverRatt · 07-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Marty, while you're answering questions, I have a couple that I've been wondering about.
First, what effect does V2 have on the green channel on my DSL? I really like the 12BZ7 in V2, but it seems that the green channel has a little more of an edge than normal with this setup. Am I imagining this, or is the BZ7 coloring it a little? If so, do you have a recommendation that would work well in this setup?

Second, and this is probably the really stupid one, does the PI affect the bias of the power tubes, especially using a lower gain tube like a 12AT7?

I'll have to catch the reply tomorrow at work. My PC at home has been zapped by W32.Virut.CF for like the third time this year. Time for another re-install, as that thing corrupts so many system files that it's virtually impossible to recover from. Damned kids visiting porn sites, probably.

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

Marty, while you're answering questions, I have a couple that I've been wondering about.
First, what effect does V2 have on the green channel on my DSL? I really like the 12BZ7 in V2, but it seems that the green channel has a little more of an edge than normal with this setup. Am I imagining this, or is the BZ7 coloring it a little? If so, do you have a recommendation that would work well in this setup?

Second, and this is probably the really stupid one, does the PI affect the bias of the power tubes, especially using a lower gain tube like a 12AT7?

I'll have to catch the reply tomorrow at work. My PC at home has been zapped by W32.Virut.CF for like the third time this year. Time for another re-install, as that thing corrupts so many system files that it's virtually impossible to recover from. Damned kids visiting porn sites, probably.

Well Ratt, I'm the perfect candidate for looking at porn, 54 and single. However, I stay away from that shit, it will eat your brains up. I hope your kids respect you and will not go to virus prone sites. Okay enough about that.

First off, the way a Marshall works is that from the input it goes into the first preamp circuit and uses "one half" of the triode (12AX7). It then goes into the second preamp stage through "one half" of the next triode. A lot of people are under the impression that the signal goes through both sides of the tube. This is untrue, as it uses one half of V1 and V2 for the Green Channel. The other half is for your Crunch Channel.

A 12BZ7 will always provide more gain than a 12AX7. This has been discussed many times in this forum. A 12BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. However, some guitar amp circuits do not like a 12BZ7. Excessive gain sometimes isn't a good thing. I sent Josh a 35-35 tube and he sent it back. He went with a 7025 in V1 and an Amperex 12AX7 in V2. So far, based on my experiments and those by Joe and Josh, the 7025 is the key to having great overall Marshall sound. Pairing a 7025 up with a high gain (30-30) tube is what everyone is settling on, so there must be something to it.

I think the 12BZ7 may meet the expectations of a certain number of players who focus on a narrow band of tone requirements. The 12AX7 is to me a more musical sounding tube. The 12BZ7 I feel is going to make your clean channel a little gritty sounding. How do you rectify this? The only way would be to put a lesser gain tube in V1. This will clean up your Green Channel. However, you will have to make some adjustments to get your Crunch Channel sounding the way you like it, but it can be done.

The PI does not affect the bias of the power tubes. If it did, we all would be catching hell for tube rolling. Do you remember the guy I talked about recently? He had a Marshall and someone played a good one on him. It had two 12AU7's in it. One in V1 and the other in the PI. It was like putting a kink in a garden hose, the signal was choked off. I always wonder why some people will put a 12AU7 in a Marshall amp? I can handle a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a tube with a gain of 17 to 19. What's that going to get you?

Well I hope I answered your questions. If not post them and I will try to get to them.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 07:08 PM

For all of you who are new to this forum, I would like to point out something regarding the grading of tubes.

On this thread, most of the tubes used are tested and graded on a B and K 707 Dyna Jet tube tester. Fully calibrated and converted to a solid state power supply for less ripple in the DC.

Unlike power tubes that are graded between 70 and 120, this tester tests 12AX7 (and all similar tubes) in a different fashion. If the tube tests on both triodes (A and B) at 22-22, this represents a nominal tube.

22-22 can be roughly converted into 80-80.

A tube with a grading of 30-30 is a high gain tube and can be converted into 110-110.

So as you can see, a small change in the actual test score results in a larger, conventional score.

I just brought this up, because tube tester all read differently depending on the make and model. Readers of this thread are seeing numbers like 26-28 or 31-29 and I just wanted to clarify what these numbers mean. If I had a different tester, they would all test differently.

And for all of you first time viewers, a 12AX7 is actually two circuits inside the same glass tube. Ideally they would be matched, but in the real world only a small percentage are. When a 12AX7 is tested there are two readings. One is for Triode A and the other is for Triode B. That is why you will see two numbers like 25-27.

It's nice to have these two numbers close, but it is not necessary for them to be identical. A Marshall amp is designed to compensate for unbalanced preamp tubes. Trying to find a set of perfectly matched tubes is a waste of time and money. This goes for the phase inverter position as well. It used to be that everyone would put a matched tube in this position. I'm just letting you know that it is not necessary.

I pulled the stock tubes out of two, new Marshall amps and tested them. They were all unbalanced and in one case the "new" tube didn't pass the tube test. The tubes in both PI positions were unbalanced. So Marshall is agreeing with what I am telling you.

If you are just starting out with a tube amp, or you are an old pro, it pays to learn as much as possible about your amp. What we have found out here on this thread is that the right preamp tubes have a huge impact on your tone. In other words, it is basically a "mod." I think changing speakers and preamp tubes are the two easiest "mods" a player can perform on his rig.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 07-07-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... First off, the way a Marshall works is that from the input it goes into the first preamp circuit and uses "one half" of the triode (12AX7). It then goes into the second preamp stage through "one half" of the next triode. A lot of people are under the impression that the signal goes through both sides of the tube. This is untrue, as it uses one half of V1 and V2 for the Green Channel. The other half is for your Crunch Channel...

Ratt is running a DSL, what's the breakdown on how the tube is utilized in a three channel amp like the TSL? Is the amp using "triode-A" for the clean, and "triode-B" for the Crunch and lead channels... Or is it set up different in this scenario?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... A 12BZ7 will always provide more gain than a 12AX7. This has been discussed many times in this forum. A 12BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. However, some guitar amp circuits do not like a 12BZ7. Excessive gain sometimes isn't a good thing. I sent Josh a 35-35 tube and he sent it back. He went with a 7025 in V1 and an Amperex 12AX7 in V2. So far, based on my experiments and those by Joe and Josh, the 7025 is the key to having great overall Marshall sound. Pairing a 7025 up with a high gain (30-30) tube is what everyone is settling on, so there must be something to it...

As much as I hate to be agreeable...

... The 7025 mixed w/ a high gain 12AX7 really covers a lot of musical ground (ranging from pristine and sparkly to melt your ear drums high gain. Marty is right on here.

There was a lot about the 12BZ7 that I really loved... Unfortunately it just wasn't the best match for my combo amp. I'd love to have a amp/cab setup too so that I could have an amp running the 12BZ7. It really is a sweet tube.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... It was like putting a kink in a garden hose...

Solar & I refer to this as "neutering" your amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... the signal was choked off. I always wonder why some people will put a 12AU7 in a Marshall amp? I can handle a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a tube with a gain of 17 to 19. What's that going to get you?

I have a 12AU7 that I pulled from an old TV... For kicks and grins I did try it out in different positions in my amp. Not all horrible, but not Marshall, and it did neuter the amp significantly. Again... Marty is right on the money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

Yup. The Tube Store is a great info resource. And yup... I'd have to agree that the 12AU7 was way too much neutering. It didn't just snip the berries, but took the whole twig too!

There's my two cents for the day!

So... Whaddaya think Marty? Any input on the TSL's use of tubes (i.e. what half of what tube is used for what)?

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 09:19 PM

You know Josh. I'm not 100 per cent sure. Maybe someone else will be able to help us out. I do know that the TSL is different from the DSL, whereas the crunch and lead channels share a lot of the same circuitry. However, if I remember right, the TSL relies on V3 in the lead channel. In other words, I think that the signal path is V1, V2 and V3 using the B side of the tubes for gain and then the signal dumps into V4.

When the TSL came out it was heralded for its outstanding sustain and I think this was due to the fact that three 12AX7's were in the signal chain in the Lead Mode.

The TSL is a complicated amp and as I said, I'm not 100 per cent sure about this. It would be hard to find an answer to this online unless you knew the exact place to look. Maybe you could start a thread and ask what the signal path of a TSL is? I'm sure some of the electronics engineers would be able to answer this question.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 09:40 PM

JOSH. I started a thread to see if I could get the real answer to this. I know that there are quite a few engineers and tube amp repairmen who probably know the answer to this. I'd like to know myself. It would help us better understand why certain tubes work best in certain position.

Now I know V1 and V2 are a no-brainer, but I would like to know what each side of V3 is doing in a TSL. Does one side provide extra gain and the other side operate the tone stack/cathode follower? If this is the case, then you would want to put a tube like a 24-28 in V3. Do you see why I said this? The 28 would be on the gain side and you would want that elevated. 24 would be a good number for the tone stack. So yes, this is a good question and maybe by tomorrow, we will have an answer.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 07-07-2009, 09:52 PM

This thread rules for usable info that you can put to work right off.

Here's my fav Marshall mods taking into account that my fiddle is set up:

1. Tubes(NOS)
2. Speakers(K100's/GB's/V30's)
3. Boost pedal(not for more gain but enhancement)

This thread and the info in it have given me the ability to get the best tones(IMO)I've had to date. Others have helped but this one will deliver no doubt about it.

joshuaaewallen · 07-07-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

JOSH. I started a thread to see if I could get the real answer to this. I know that there are quite a few engineers and tube amp repairmen who probably know the answer to this. I'd like to know myself. It would help us better understand why certain tubes work best in certain position.

Now I know V1 and V2 are a no-brainer, but I would like to know what each side of V3 is doing in a TSL. Does one side provide extra gain and the other side operate the tone stack/cathode follower? If this is the case, then you would want to put a tube like a 24-28 in V3. Do you see why I said this? The 28 would be on the gain side and you would want that elevated. 24 would be a good number for the tone stack. So yes, this is a good question and maybe by tomorrow, we will have an answer.

Marty

Awesome. Thanks for the heads up Marty! I am subscribed to the new thread (TSL Signal Path-Engineers and Repairmen Only) and eagerly anticipating some feed back. Sadly, the TSL is rather maligned in the forum and I fear the response may be more negative than useful...

MartyStrat54 · 07-07-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

Awesome. Thanks for the heads up Marty! I am subscribed to the new thread (TSL Signal Path-Engineers and Repairmen Only)and eagerly anticipating some feed back. Sadly, the TSL is rather maligned in the forum and I fear the response may be more negative than useful...

Yes, it could be perceived as "a red-headed stepchild." What's funny is that a lot of people rave about the JVM410 and it is just a TSL with one more channel. Even I thought that was overkill. (Sort of like the razor blade race. It used to be that one blade could shave you, but now it's five independent razors shaving your beard.) Why do you need four channels? Anyway, it's a current model, so you aren't allowed to slam them.

I'm just hoping one of the members with some class can provide the info. Hell, I'm not embarrassed that I own TSL's. At one time they were the flagship of the line. Just remember that.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 07-08-2009, 09:28 AM

I am curious to see if the boys at the black burn plant can get-er-goin'... I really would like to be optimistic because we could really use a new production tube that is actually of good build quality and sounds good, but I guess only time will tell.

On that note... They are stepping up their marketing. Here's a copy of the marketing email they sent me today...

Quote:

Hi there,
Last Wednesday saw the launch of the TechTube™ valve web shop to allow us to assess the final release of the e-commerce site. We are now fully ready with the first true valve development in over 40 years to allow the general public to get their hands on the product so you too can hear the fantastic improvements in tone, speed and creamy smoothness.
Giving a superior listening experience we have engineered unbeatable sound reproduction. With their state of the art design, improved life performance, and superb sound development the valves excel with speed of response and sensitivity. TechTube™ valves deliver on every level.
Having undertaken testing in HiFi audio systems, guitar amplifiers and professional recording equipment, all come back with the same response, WOW!! The improvement in tone, clarity, and lack of background noise has to be heard to be believed but don’t take our word for it. The new web site has quotes from the people who have tested the valves and also video footage so you can hear the valves in action.
From the shop you can buy either standard valves or matched triode versions. We aim to please, so shipping from our factory here in Blackburn right through to your door, where ever that may be in the world is taken care of, even the duty payment to get it through Customs. Through every step of the buying process you are kept informed and even when you have placed your order we email you to let you know how things are progressing.
Some of the very first valves bought have now been received by Customers and they have started to play with them. As is the world of the internet, blog reports are already coming through every day. Look into diyAudio and GearPage to read the latest entries.
From all in the TechTube™ team @ Blackburn
************************************************** ****
If you no longer wish to be on the TechTube™ mailing list then please send a mail to admin@blackburnmicrotech.com with the word “REMOVE ME” in the subject line. Our apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Click Here For A Video Review On Blackburn's Website

Here's what they have to say about their version of the 12AX7 (Marty... You're gonna wanna look at this... Download the E813CC datasheet (PDF)):

Quote:

The E813CC has the same generic electrical characteristics as the world renowned ECC83. However its unique construction and our attention to manufacturing consistency result in a valve that delivers better performance time and time again. With improvements in “speed” and “clarity” the TechTube™ valve delivers detail you never knew existed.

Superior listening experience
Improved life performance
High quality build gives superb sound reproduction to every valve
Planar valve design
Unbeatable sound reproduction
CRT cathode proven technology
Direct replacement for ECC83/12AX7 and equivalents
Built to repeat the sound experience time after time after time
6.3V driving voltage
B9A pin base
Superb sound development due to the valves speed and sensitivity

The input stage of some guitar amplifiers can swamp this sensitivity generating microphony so we recommend you not to use this release of TechTube™ valve in this first valve position without using one of the many dampening devices available. (This Part Has Me Scratching my head a wee bit...)

We are Engineers of mind blowing sound and that is what you get with the TechTube™ valve, speed, clarity, smoooothness all combining to give your ears the best experience they will ever have…

From what I can see of the innards in the picture, it does look like an unusual design. What do you think?

solarburnDSL50 · 07-08-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

I am curious to see if the boys at the black burn plant can get-er-goin'... I really would like to be optimistic because we could really use a new production tube that is actually of good build quality and sounds good, but I guess only time will tell.

On that note... They are stepping up their marketing. Here's a copy of the marketing email they sent me today...

Click Here For A Video Review On Blackburn's Website

Here's what they have to say about their version of the 12AX7 (Marty... You're gonna wanna look at this... Download the E813CC datasheet (PDF)):

From what I can see of the innards in the picture, it does look like an unusual design. What do you think?

Looks like 1 12AX7 comes out to about $70. Someone buy one so we can hear the verdict...

I would but my money is tied up in 2 RFT EL34's.

07-06-2009, 10:38 PM	#573 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? I think you are cool with that lineup of 12AX7's. As far as power tubes go, there are several factors that affect them. One is plate resistance. They also have a window in which they will bias properly. Some fall at the low end of the window and others at the high end and some in the middle. This gives what is called a cool, medium or hot tube. The transconductance of the tube is its strength. When you measure a tube on a tube tester you are measuring transconductance. Generally you want the tubes to read over 90 and you want them to be somewhat close so that they will bias properly. Say you have a set that is 92-90-94-91. That is a nice set and will bias up nicely. If you have a set like 89-97-83-86, you will be able to bias the tubes but one or more of the tubes will be passing more current than its counterpart and that means one or more of the tubes will wear out before the others. Most good tube sellers match their power tubes to within 3 per cent of each other and that is plenty close. So as far as power tubes go, each tube has a certain amount of resistance, a certain window in regard to how it will bias and transconductance or strength. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-06-2009, 10:56 PM	#576 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Hey Sun Burn, I left you a PM. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-06-2009, 11:49 PM	#582 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Well, I guess this sort of turned into: "Power Tubes?-Who, What, When, Where, Why and How?" I also found out that you can post a whole bunch of stuff when Solar Burn is off work and online. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-07-2009, 12:12 AM	#583 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Have you ever wondered how many tubes JJ (and others like Sovtek) throws away each month? I'll bet it is a huge number. All the tubes that didn't make it. Then the tubes go to the next level of quality control and more fail. Supposedly they do a long burn in period and more tubes fail. They end up with several thousand tubes to sell each month. Out of these a huge percentage fail once they are put in a guitar amp and subjected to the rigors of being moved on and off a stage and put in a van and driving 100 miles on a bumpy road to get back home. I'm reading about more and more tube failures and it is the tube that failed, not something wrong with the amp that made the tube fail. I'll be keeping my eyes open on the other tube forums I visit and will post anything that is significant. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-07-2009, 05:28 PM	#590 (permalink)
RiverRatt Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Memphis and Nashville Posts: 517	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Marty, while you're answering questions, I have a couple that I've been wondering about. First, what effect does V2 have on the green channel on my DSL? I really like the 12BZ7 in V2, but it seems that the green channel has a little more of an edge than normal with this setup. Am I imagining this, or is the BZ7 coloring it a little? If so, do you have a recommendation that would work well in this setup? Second, and this is probably the really stupid one, does the PI affect the bias of the power tubes, especially using a lower gain tube like a 12AT7? I'll have to catch the reply tomorrow at work. My PC at home has been zapped by W32.Virut.CF for like the third time this year. Time for another re-install, as that thing corrupts so many system files that it's virtually impossible to recover from. Damned kids visiting porn sites, probably.

07-07-2009, 07:08 PM	#592 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? For all of you who are new to this forum, I would like to point out something regarding the grading of tubes. On this thread, most of the tubes used are tested and graded on a B and K 707 Dyna Jet tube tester. Fully calibrated and converted to a solid state power supply for less ripple in the DC. Unlike power tubes that are graded between 70 and 120, this tester tests 12AX7 (and all similar tubes) in a different fashion. If the tube tests on both triodes (A and B) at 22-22, this represents a nominal tube. 22-22 can be roughly converted into 80-80. A tube with a grading of 30-30 is a high gain tube and can be converted into 110-110. So as you can see, a small change in the actual test score results in a larger, conventional score. I just brought this up, because tube tester all read differently depending on the make and model. Readers of this thread are seeing numbers like 26-28 or 31-29 and I just wanted to clarify what these numbers mean. If I had a different tester, they would all test differently. And for all of you first time viewers, a 12AX7 is actually two circuits inside the same glass tube. Ideally they would be matched, but in the real world only a small percentage are. When a 12AX7 is tested there are two readings. One is for Triode A and the other is for Triode B. That is why you will see two numbers like 25-27. It's nice to have these two numbers close, but it is not necessary for them to be identical. A Marshall amp is designed to compensate for unbalanced preamp tubes. Trying to find a set of perfectly matched tubes is a waste of time and money. This goes for the phase inverter position as well. It used to be that everyone would put a matched tube in this position. I'm just letting you know that it is not necessary. I pulled the stock tubes out of two, new Marshall amps and tested them. They were all unbalanced and in one case the "new" tube didn't pass the tube test. The tubes in both PI positions were unbalanced. So Marshall is agreeing with what I am telling you. If you are just starting out with a tube amp, or you are an old pro, it pays to learn as much as possible about your amp. What we have found out here on this thread is that the right preamp tubes have a huge impact on your tone. In other words, it is basically a "mod." I think changing speakers and preamp tubes are the two easiest "mods" a player can perform on his rig. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-07-2009, 09:19 PM	#594 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? You know Josh. I'm not 100 per cent sure. Maybe someone else will be able to help us out. I do know that the TSL is different from the DSL, whereas the crunch and lead channels share a lot of the same circuitry. However, if I remember right, the TSL relies on V3 in the lead channel. In other words, I think that the signal path is V1, V2 and V3 using the B side of the tubes for gain and then the signal dumps into V4. When the TSL came out it was heralded for its outstanding sustain and I think this was due to the fact that three 12AX7's were in the signal chain in the Lead Mode. The TSL is a complicated amp and as I said, I'm not 100 per cent sure about this. It would be hard to find an answer to this online unless you knew the exact place to look. Maybe you could start a thread and ask what the signal path of a TSL is? I'm sure some of the electronics engineers would be able to answer this question. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

07-07-2009, 09:40 PM	#595 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,580	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? JOSH. I started a thread to see if I could get the real answer to this. I know that there are quite a few engineers and tube amp repairmen who probably know the answer to this. I'd like to know myself. It would help us better understand why certain tubes work best in certain position. Now I know V1 and V2 are a no-brainer, but I would like to know what each side of V3 is doing in a TSL. Does one side provide extra gain and the other side operate the tone stack/cathode follower? If this is the case, then you would want to put a tube like a 24-28 in V3. Do you see why I said this? The 28 would be on the gain side and you would want that elevated. 24 would be a good number for the tone stack. So yes, this is a good question and maybe by tomorrow, we will have an answer. Marty __________________ MARTY 2009 Gibson Explorer-Hell Raising Machine 1989 Fender Strat Plus USA 2008 Fender Tele USA 2004 Schecter Elite w/DiMarzio's TSL100 with custom 4x12 cab. TSL122 with Man 'O War Speakers. TSL602 #1 with JBL D123 Speakers and 602 #2 with Altec 417 Speakers. "Oh so sweet my friends." DSL401 #1 with Red Fang Speaker and 401 #2 with JBL D123 Speaker. Tubes: Let's just say they are NOS that kick ass.

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