Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Page 2

MartyStrat54 · 03-21-2009, 10:35 PM

Wow! You were doing better than most with the German Westinghouse tubes in V1 and V2. I figured you'd have a Goo Gai Pan and a Ruskie in V1 and V2. Someone actually put some decent tubes in your amp...but not as nice as that old GE I sent you. (I'm not that big of a GT fan either. They take Chinese tubes and label them up like they are something special...Yuk!)

With all of the tubes that you have and their mathematical variations and taking into account at least fifteen minutes of guitar playing time between tube changes...I'd say that you have about two years worth of experimentation, that is if my permutation's and combination's are correct.

Let her wail!!!

Marty

MUSICIAN'S AUDIO EQUIPMENT-MAKERS OF VERSACAB

joshuaaewallen · 03-22-2009, 12:57 AM

So ya think the 12BZ7 in V1 and the GE in V2 after that?

... I gotta hand it to ya Marty, not only are ya a swell guy... But I always get a chuckle outta your posts! Thanks mate!

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 06:30 PM

5:00PM

Ok... First experiment. I replaced the Westinghouse 12AX7A that was in V1 with the Raytheon 12BZ7. It worked alright in the clean channel. I think I may even catagorize it as a bit more "snappy". But... Not so hot on the crunch and lead channels. Distortion/Gain-wise I think it may have been good, but it was tough to tell because there was a constant tone coming from amp even w/ all my strings muted. The tone just about matched up to the note you'd find by fretting the D string at the 9th fret. First I'm going to pull out that tube and throw the Westinghouse back in V1, and if the noise goes away I'll try the GE in V2 and see what happens.

In case you are interested here are the tubes I have to work with (the ones that came with the amp when I bought it, and the ones I got from Marty... The Tube Corral

6:00PM

That GE 12AX7 really has a nice rich warm quality to it. That is a likely candidate to remain in the V2 Spot... But I am thinking I may pull it and try the Raytheon 12BZ7 there and see if that howling noise comes back. If it does I'd have to conclude that the BZ7 just ain't gonna jive with this amp. Any thoughts on this?

MartyStrat54 · 03-24-2009, 07:29 PM

Well that sucks!

Try the 12BZ7 in V4. You did use the slip on cover for the 12BZ7...correct? It should have a shield on it in the V1 position.

Try the GE in V1 and the JJ gold pin in V2 and see how that sounds. If that's cool, then try the 12BZ7 in V4. If it creates noise then either it is not compatible with your amp, or it may have become microphonic (why I use the special rubber bands around my tubes).

For a short term experiment, you can take a medium rubber band and wrap it around the tube until snug. Try the tube for a while to see if it works, or if it still has the same problem. If it does, the tube might have gotten damaged in shipping (which would suck

).

Keep me posted.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 07:57 PM

ok. Current status:

V1 has the Westinghouse in it that was originally there. I just popped the 12BZ7 into V2 to see if it exhibited the same symptoms in that spot. This is interesting...

Now the clean channel has tons of noise. Actually so much so that I can't play over it at all. However, the crunch channel has a lot more presence and seems pretty, well... Crunchy. Nice tone. Clear definition on all the notes. Not bad. But when I stop playing... There's a slight ringing in the background. Not too loud, but definitely audible. The Lead channel is smokin'. Lots more presence. Good note definition, real heavy British rock. Same thing with the ringing tone (note-wise the tone matches up with the G string at the 9th fret).

Just for kicks-n-grins I may put everything back as it originally was then try the 12BZ7 in V4.

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

If it creates noise then either it is not compatible with your amp, or it may have become microphonic (why I use the special rubber bands around my tubes).

For a short term experiment, you can take a medium rubber band and wrap it around the tube until snug. Try the tube for a while to see if it works, or if it still has the same problem. If it does, the tube might have gotten damaged in shipping (which would suck

).

Marty

FYI: I got hooked up w/ yer pals on eBay, and ordered a set of dampers for my tubes too. I figured it couldn't hurt.

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

... Just for kicks-n-grins I may put everything back as it originally was then try the 12BZ7 in V4.

Actually... Since I like that GE in V2 so much... I'm gonna try this experiment w/ the GE in V2 and the 12BZ7 in V4... We'll see how that goes. I have the tubes in and the amp warming up again (on standby) right now.

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well that sucks!

Try the 12BZ7 in V4. You did use the slip on cover for the 12BZ7...correct? It should have a shield on it in the V1 position.

Try the GE in V1 and the JJ gold pin in V2 and see how that sounds. If that's cool, then try the 12BZ7 in V4...

Marty

Well... It looks like the amp just doesn't like that 12BZ7. V4 brings out the nice qualities described above, but it also has microphonics on all channels so it's just a no-go on that puppy.

Yup. The shield I had on my amp actually fit over the 12BZ7... Whoda thunk it? So I used that rather than one you sent because it snapped in more securely.

I'll try your rubber band trick if my dampers don't come before I get another crack at it... But, the wife just came home after a day of baby-sitting so she's gonna put the kubosh on my noisy science project. I'll have to pick this up later. So walking away from it Here's How it sits:

V1: Westinghouse
V2: GE
V3: GT
V4: JJ (not the Gold Pin)

I think I'm gonna try the layout you listed you listed above next... The GE in V1 and the JJ Gold Pin in V2.

MartyStrat54 · 03-24-2009, 09:38 PM

Well, you could send me back the 12BZ7 and I have a bunch of Westinghouse 12BZ7. It's too late for me to try and return the Raytheon, but I'll contact the seller just in case he's a nice guy. The 12BZ7 is ruining the experiment, because it's no good. It's one of those, "It tested good, but it's no good," tubes. It tested strong on my tube tester, but the tester can't test for microphonics. You have to stick them in an amp to see if they are okay. You did and it's a screamer, ringer and a real frickin' nightmare!

If I can get around to it, I will send you a Westinghouse 12BZ7. If it does the same thing, then we have solved that equation. If it kicks as, then we corrected our test pool of tubes.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 03-24-2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Well, you could send me back the 12BZ7 and I have a bunch of Westinghouse 12BZ7. It's too late for me to try and return the Raytheon, but I'll contact the seller just in case he's a nice guy. The 12BZ7 is ruining the experiment, because it's no good. It's one of those, "It tested good, but it's no good," tubes. It tested strong on my tube tester, but the tester can't test for microphonics. You have to stick them in an amp to see if they are okay. You did and it's a screamer, ringer and a real frickin' nightmare!

If I can get around to it, I will send you a Westinghouse 12BZ7. If it does the same thing, then we have solved that equation. If it kicks as, then we corrected our test pool of tubes.

Marty

I concur. A good comparison would be another 12BZ7. I'd say if that doesn't work either... Then my amp probably just doesn't like those specs. But if it does... We could have a whole new basis for experimentation. Plus, if you were of a mind to, you could try this tube in one of your amps and see if it does the same thing...

At any rate, so far I am just having fun playing around with it. For now I'll continue to play with what I've got, and if you know of another test subject (... and it's not too pricey...), then we'll have a go at it. Fun.

joshuaaewallen · 03-25-2009, 08:30 PM

With a shout out to Marty (my tube tweaking mentor), here's the latest on my tube experimentation:

Around 4:00PM tonight I ran it like so...

V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Gold Pinned JJ ECC83 12AX7
V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S

CLEAN = Grade A
CRUNCH & LEAD = Some microphonic feedback when standing in front of the amp, even w/ the strings muted. But the distortion is very crunchy. Nice.

At around 4:45PM I tried the following configuration:

V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Westinghouse 12AX7A (Made in Germany)
V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S

CLEAN = Still Lovin' it. Pretty bright, but chords are big and chimey.
CRUNCH = Nice crunch. Lots of texture. Bright. Crunchy. Very AC/DC meets RUSH.
LEAD = Tons of gain. Lots of texture. But I think too brassy (when directly in front of the amp) for my taste.

To keep it pure I basically kept the same settings that I had been using with tubes that were in it when I bought the amp... So I can compare tubes all using the same settings. So far this is proving to be quite interesting. Now I just need to find ways to keep my wife out of the house for a while so I can crank it up

One thing I'm getting used to... Because I'm an at home player who rarely gets to crank it up, I guess I just didn't realize how much difference there is in what you hear between loud and quiet volume settings. I know that with the volume set at 1 my wife doesn't gripe too much, but at 2 it's plenty loud to hear throughout the whole house. She frowns on that...

Plus it sounds very different in sound when you are off to the side of the amp compared to sitting right in front of it at ear level...

Suffice to say I'm enjoying discovering all these little nuances.

RiverRatt · 03-26-2009, 02:16 AM

You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.

joshuaaewallen · 03-26-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.

Food for thought. As noted above I am definitely in the experimentation stage of things...

Boy... It'd be nice to have a tube tester!

MartyStrat54 · 03-26-2009, 07:27 PM

JOSH, send me the 12BZ7 back as fast as you can. I'm going to get a refund on it and send you another 12BZ7 (Westinghouse).

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 03-27-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

JOSH, send me the 12BZ7 back as fast as you can. I'm going to get a refund on it and send you another 12BZ7 (Westinghouse).

Marty

Hi Marty... It's about 11:47PM... I'll pack it up in the morning and drop it off at the post office while I'm working tomorrow. Thanks mate!

joshuaaewallen · 03-28-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.

Found one (12AX7A RCA Gray Plate - Halo Getter) for $12 that supposedly tested 105/105... I figured the wife and I could do w/out one dinner at Taco Bell, so there ya have it. When it arrives I'll be throwing that into my rotation of experiments...

steelhorse · 03-28-2009, 06:36 PM

heh, taco bell, good one Josh.

rockinr0ll · 03-28-2009, 09:02 PM

lol that was funny

MartyStrat54 · 03-28-2009, 10:01 PM

Found one (12AX7A RCA Gray Plate - Halo Getter) for $12 that supposedly tested 105/105... I figured the wife and I could do w/out one dinner at Taco Bell, so there ya have it. When it arrives I'll be throwing that into my rotation of experiments...

If you got an RCA 12AX7A (later design, better tube) that tests 105/105, for $12, I'd say you got one hell of a deal, but then you don't have a tube tester to measure out the seller's honesty. I mean that is what they call an NOS tube. Did it come with the factory box?

I just bought three, 1960 Tung-Sol tubes. These were 12AX7. Ebay deal. The seller listed them as, "Tests good, sounds good." I get them and everyone was bad. The best one read like 51/49. The other two were worse. I got a hold of the seller and they will be heading back on Monday. I was so into getting three good Tung-Sol tubes. Not to be. I have two pair of 6V6's for sale right now on EBAY in case you got a little Fender at home.

Marty

steelhorse · 03-29-2009, 12:18 AM

Holy cripes! 6V6's?

joshuaaewallen · 03-29-2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... If you got an RCA 12AX7A (later design, better tube) that tests 105/105, for $12, I'd say you got one hell of a deal, but then you don't have a tube tester to measure out the seller's honesty. I mean that is what they call an NOS tube. Did it come with the factory box?

I agree... I unfortunately have no way to test it other than to throw it in my amp and see if it's crap... I wish I had a tester, but don't know enough about what to get or how much $$$ a decent used tester would run... As far as the factory box... I don't know yet... Looked like it from the picture, but tough to be sure. I'll find out when it arrives. Hopefully not the hard way...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... I have two pair of 6V6's for sale right now on EBAY in case you got a little Fender at home.

Alas... Nope. I only have one amp right now. That'd be my TSL. I'd love a smaller amp for portability, but right now I only have a few bucks here and there to play with... Hmm... Perhaps I should try saving my money?

... nah

I'll keep ya posted. By the way, that 12BZ7 was in the mail yesterday.

Gotta split... I have a cold and feel pretty crappy, so I am gonna hit the hay. Take care ya'll! Ciao!

MartyStrat54 · 03-29-2009, 07:32 PM

I agree... I unfortunately have no way to test it other than to throw it in my amp and see if it's crap...

Well the problem with that statement is that a "worn-out" 12AX7 will still work. The gain factor of a 12AX7(A) is 100. Those worn out Tung-Sol's would probably still work if I had stuck them in my amp, but the gain would be affected. They might of had a gain of 45 or 50.

In one of my prior posts, I stated that I put worn out 12AX7's in V1 and the owners just loved the sound. It's all about the level of gain a tube is still capable of producing. A 5751 has a gain of 70 and some people sub this tube for a 12AX7, so if you have a worn out 12AX7 with say a gain of 70, you basically have a 5751.

Yes, a tester is the only way to truly tell whether or not you are getting what you bought.

As far a the 6V6's, that was sort of a side note letting other members know that I had them for sale.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 03-29-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

... a tester is the only way to truly tell whether or not you are getting what you bought...

From just a brief online search, really more of a cursory glance, it would appear as though there are MANY different types of testers out there... What is effective and reasonably priced? (Not that I have the $$$ anyways, but someday...)

joshuaaewallen · 03-29-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

heh, taco bell, good one Josh.

Mmm... Taco Bell...

steelhorse · 03-30-2009, 02:46 AM

That's a LOT of taco bells sacrificed for the PRS brother!

joshuaaewallen · 03-30-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

That's a LOT of taco bells sacrificed for the PRS brother!

...

Indeed.

Well... Actually...

It's the PRS that put me into the Taco Bell catorgory for dining out!

And the beauty is it's now almost paid off! Ahh, how sweet it is.
Rock on!

MartyStrat54 · 03-30-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

From just a brief online search, really more of a cursory glance, it would appear as though there are MANY different types of testers out there... What is effective and reasonably priced? (Not that I have the $$$ anyways, but someday...)

Well another thing you have to understand is that many of the testers being sold are easily 40 years old, if not older. Back in the day, there were cheesy testers and there were exceptional ones. To be considered:
1.Hickok 700/800 Series Testers
2.B and K 707/747 Testers
3.Military TV-7 Tester

There are some that cost way less and they're crap. Others can cost a whole lot. There is a brand new tube tester that is being sold and it really tests a tube unlike any other tester, but they want 3G for it. I'll take my trusty B and K 707. It's never let me down.

If you ever decide to get a tube tester, it would be a good idea to read up on how they work. That way you can tell the good ones from the bad ones.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 04-01-2009, 05:19 PM

Hey Marty!

Guess what came in the mail today?

Here are some slight hints...

And...

As soon as I get a chance... Hopefully tonight... I'll give ya the full report. Thanks again mate. You rock!!!

RiverRatt · 04-02-2009, 01:25 AM

Great! I've been waiting for the RCA tone report. I found a tray of 5 NOS RCA clear tops just recently. Unfortunately, they are 12AU7As, dammit. They're great if you want a ton of headroom, or want to build a half-dozen Fireflys. Not much good in a high-gain Marshall, though.

joshuaaewallen · 04-02-2009, 10:27 PM

Hi Marty!

I finally got a chance to throw that Westinghouse 12BZ7 into my TSL. Here's the deal... WOW!!!

Here's the current lineup:
V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Westinghouse 12BZ7
V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S

The CLEAN channel is clear and and bright, and with the mid-boost on and the gain about 6 almost crunchy! With the mid-boost off (the way I usually like it) it can range from pristine almost acoustic clean to country twang with just a wee turn of the knobs. Very cool.

The CRUNCH channel is tough to describe. I actually turned down the gain knob from 5 (ala the Georgia Satellites "Keep Your Hands To Yourself") down to 3 (ala the intro to AC/DC's "Hells Bells"). This is a first for me... I am guilty of often running the gain way higher than I should. This channel definately "growls" more than it ever did before, and w/out sounding brassy or shrill. This channel seems uber versatile.

The LEAD channel... My oh my... We are talking about a seriously screaming lead channel. I am gonna have to play around with this one. I tell ya I am LOVIN' it! It is hard to describe because it is at once both grittier/crunchier (for example when playing full chords) and smoother (double stops on the D & G strings sound incredibly smooth). It is a really, really great high gain sound.

On all channels, particularly the CRUNCH and LEAD channels, there is a noticeable increase in attack. Pinch harmonics just jump off the strings, and finger noises and movements are much more pronounced. Playing with this preamp tube arrangement will likely force me to become a less sloppy player because mistakes and poor playing are more readily noticed.

I think that the Westinghouse 12BZ7 is a winner! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest Marshall bro ever!

For those of you not entirely familiar with the 12BZ7 tube... Here's the brief rundown from Tube World:

Quote:

12BZ7 High-Mu Dual Triode
(Max ratings: 300Vplate, 1.5 watts)
(Vfil=12.6V @ 300ma)
(Typical Operation Class A amp: Vplate=250V, Vgrid=-2V, Ip=2.5ma, Rp=31.8Kohms, Gm=3200, Mu=100)
(The 12BZ7 has been subbed for a 12AX7 in some circuits)
(The 12BZ7 has 2 times the Gm (3200 versus 1600) and lower plate resistance (31K versus 62K)
and higher filament current (300ma versus 150ma) than a 12AX7)
(The 12BZ7 was designed primarily for use as a sync separator and sync amplifier
in television receivers. It is also useful in clipping circuits and as a general purpose
audio amplifer)

RiverRatt,

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

... Great! I've been waiting for the RCA tone report...

Don't worry mate, I haven't forgotten about you. Next up at bat is the RCA 12AX7A that arrived yesterday. I am looking forward to putting it through it's paces.

One thing is fo sho... Marshall amps just plain slay!

Suffice to say, I am having loads of fun trying new tubes and tube combinations. Thank for your suggestions and input, and all I can say is please keep it coming! You guys rock!

:r ock:

03-21-2009, 10:35 PM	#31 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Wow! You were doing better than most with the German Westinghouse tubes in V1 and V2. I figured you'd have a Goo Gai Pan and a Ruskie in V1 and V2. Someone actually put some decent tubes in your amp...but not as nice as that old GE I sent you. (I'm not that big of a GT fan either. They take Chinese tubes and label them up like they are something special...Yuk!) With all of the tubes that you have and their mathematical variations and taking into account at least fifteen minutes of guitar playing time between tube changes...I'd say that you have about two years worth of experimentation, that is if my permutation's and combination's are correct. Let her wail!!! Marty MUSICIAN'S AUDIO EQUIPMENT-MAKERS OF VERSACAB

03-22-2009, 12:57 AM	#32 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? So ya think the 12BZ7 in V1 and the GE in V2 after that? ... I gotta hand it to ya Marty, not only are ya a swell guy... But I always get a chuckle outta your posts! Thanks mate! __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama Last edited by joshuaaewallen; 03-22-2009 at 09:07 AM.

03-24-2009, 06:30 PM	#33 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? 5:00PM Ok... First experiment. I replaced the Westinghouse 12AX7A that was in V1 with the Raytheon 12BZ7. It worked alright in the clean channel. I think I may even catagorize it as a bit more "snappy". But... Not so hot on the crunch and lead channels. Distortion/Gain-wise I think it may have been good, but it was tough to tell because there was a constant tone coming from amp even w/ all my strings muted. The tone just about matched up to the note you'd find by fretting the D string at the 9th fret. First I'm going to pull out that tube and throw the Westinghouse back in V1, and if the noise goes away I'll try the GE in V2 and see what happens. In case you are interested here are the tubes I have to work with (the ones that came with the amp when I bought it, and the ones I got from Marty... The Tube Corral 6:00PM That GE 12AX7 really has a nice rich warm quality to it. That is a likely candidate to remain in the V2 Spot... But I am thinking I may pull it and try the Raytheon 12BZ7 there and see if that howling noise comes back. If it does I'd have to conclude that the BZ7 just ain't gonna jive with this amp. Any thoughts on this? __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama Last edited by joshuaaewallen; 03-24-2009 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Update To Post

03-24-2009, 07:29 PM	#34 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Well that sucks! Try the 12BZ7 in V4. You did use the slip on cover for the 12BZ7...correct? It should have a shield on it in the V1 position. Try the GE in V1 and the JJ gold pin in V2 and see how that sounds. If that's cool, then try the 12BZ7 in V4. If it creates noise then either it is not compatible with your amp, or it may have become microphonic (why I use the special rubber bands around my tubes). For a short term experiment, you can take a medium rubber band and wrap it around the tube until snug. Try the tube for a while to see if it works, or if it still has the same problem. If it does, the tube might have gotten damaged in shipping (which would suck). Keep me posted. Marty

03-24-2009, 07:57 PM	#35 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? ok. Current status: V1 has the Westinghouse in it that was originally there. I just popped the 12BZ7 into V2 to see if it exhibited the same symptoms in that spot. This is interesting... Now the clean channel has tons of noise. Actually so much so that I can't play over it at all. However, the crunch channel has a lot more presence and seems pretty, well... Crunchy. Nice tone. Clear definition on all the notes. Not bad. But when I stop playing... There's a slight ringing in the background. Not too loud, but definitely audible. The Lead channel is smokin'. Lots more presence. Good note definition, real heavy British rock. Same thing with the ringing tone (note-wise the tone matches up with the G string at the 9th fret). Just for kicks-n-grins I may put everything back as it originally was then try the 12BZ7 in V4. __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

03-24-2009, 09:38 PM	#39 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Well, you could send me back the 12BZ7 and I have a bunch of Westinghouse 12BZ7. It's too late for me to try and return the Raytheon, but I'll contact the seller just in case he's a nice guy. The 12BZ7 is ruining the experiment, because it's no good. It's one of those, "It tested good, but it's no good," tubes. It tested strong on my tube tester, but the tester can't test for microphonics. You have to stick them in an amp to see if they are okay. You did and it's a screamer, ringer and a real frickin' nightmare! If I can get around to it, I will send you a Westinghouse 12BZ7. If it does the same thing, then we have solved that equation. If it kicks as, then we corrected our test pool of tubes. Marty

03-25-2009, 08:30 PM	#41 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? With a shout out to Marty (my tube tweaking mentor), here's the latest on my tube experimentation: Around 4:00PM tonight I ran it like so... V1: 1961 GE 12AX7 V2: Gold Pinned JJ ECC83 12AX7 V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S CLEAN = Grade A CRUNCH & LEAD = Some microphonic feedback when standing in front of the amp, even w/ the strings muted. But the distortion is very crunchy. Nice. At around 4:45PM I tried the following configuration: V1: 1961 GE 12AX7 V2: Westinghouse 12AX7A (Made in Germany) V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S CLEAN = Still Lovin' it. Pretty bright, but chords are big and chimey. CRUNCH = Nice crunch. Lots of texture. Bright. Crunchy. Very AC/DC meets RUSH. LEAD = Tons of gain. Lots of texture. But I think too brassy (when directly in front of the amp) for my taste. To keep it pure I basically kept the same settings that I had been using with tubes that were in it when I bought the amp... So I can compare tubes all using the same settings. So far this is proving to be quite interesting. Now I just need to find ways to keep my wife out of the house for a while so I can crank it up One thing I'm getting used to... Because I'm an at home player who rarely gets to crank it up, I guess I just didn't realize how much difference there is in what you hear between loud and quiet volume settings. I know that with the volume set at 1 my wife doesn't gripe too much, but at 2 it's plenty loud to hear throughout the whole house. She frowns on that... Plus it sounds very different in sound when you are off to the side of the amp compared to sitting right in front of it at ear level... Suffice to say I'm enjoying discovering all these little nuances. __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama

03-26-2009, 02:16 AM	#42 (permalink)
RiverRatt Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Memphis and Nashville Posts: 470	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.

03-26-2009, 07:27 PM	#44 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? JOSH, send me the 12BZ7 back as fast as you can. I'm going to get a refund on it and send you another 12BZ7 (Westinghouse). Marty

03-28-2009, 06:36 PM	#47 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,852	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? heh, taco bell, good one Josh. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

03-28-2009, 09:02 PM	#48 (permalink)
rockinr0ll Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,245	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? lol that was funny

03-28-2009, 10:01 PM	#49 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Found one (12AX7A RCA Gray Plate - Halo Getter) for $12 that supposedly tested 105/105... I figured the wife and I could do w/out one dinner at Taco Bell, so there ya have it. When it arrives I'll be throwing that into my rotation of experiments... If you got an RCA 12AX7A (later design, better tube) that tests 105/105, for $12, I'd say you got one hell of a deal, but then you don't have a tube tester to measure out the seller's honesty. I mean that is what they call an NOS tube. Did it come with the factory box? I just bought three, 1960 Tung-Sol tubes. These were 12AX7. Ebay deal. The seller listed them as, "Tests good, sounds good." I get them and everyone was bad. The best one read like 51/49. The other two were worse. I got a hold of the seller and they will be heading back on Monday. I was so into getting three good Tung-Sol tubes. Not to be. I have two pair of 6V6's for sale right now on EBAY in case you got a little Fender at home. Marty

03-29-2009, 12:18 AM	#50 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,852	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Holy cripes! 6V6's? __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

03-29-2009, 07:32 PM	#52 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 2,392	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? I agree... I unfortunately have no way to test it other than to throw it in my amp and see if it's crap... Well the problem with that statement is that a "worn-out" 12AX7 will still work. The gain factor of a 12AX7(A) is 100. Those worn out Tung-Sol's would probably still work if I had stuck them in my amp, but the gain would be affected. They might of had a gain of 45 or 50. In one of my prior posts, I stated that I put worn out 12AX7's in V1 and the owners just loved the sound. It's all about the level of gain a tube is still capable of producing. A 5751 has a gain of 70 and some people sub this tube for a 12AX7, so if you have a worn out 12AX7 with say a gain of 70, you basically have a 5751. Yes, a tester is the only way to truly tell whether or not you are getting what you bought. As far a the 6V6's, that was sort of a side note letting other members know that I had them for sale. Marty

03-30-2009, 02:46 AM	#55 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,852	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? That's a LOT of taco bells sacrificed for the PRS brother! __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

04-01-2009, 05:19 PM	#58 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Hey Marty! Guess what came in the mail today? Here are some slight hints... And... As soon as I get a chance... Hopefully tonight... I'll give ya the full report. Thanks again mate. You rock!!! __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top Dean Caddy w/ Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs (This One's For Sale, Just Let Me Know If You Are Interested) 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama Last edited by joshuaaewallen; 04-01-2009 at 05:19 PM. Reason: rewording... just a wee bit.

04-02-2009, 01:25 AM	#59 (permalink)
RiverRatt Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Between Memphis and Nashville Posts: 470	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Great! I've been waiting for the RCA tone report. I found a tray of 5 NOS RCA clear tops just recently. Unfortunately, they are 12AU7As, dammit. They're great if you want a ton of headroom, or want to build a half-dozen Fireflys. Not much good in a high-gain Marshall, though.

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