Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Page 10

MartyStrat54 · 05-11-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Hey Josh! Marty should get the new production tubes on Monday. So expect to hear about it not too long after that he he. I hear you got a torpedo from him. Let us know how it goes man?

Joe, I got your tubes today. I don't know if I will have time to mess with them or not. I'm thinking about taking the back off of my DSL401 and using it as the test amp. That way, when the Sylvania's show up, I'll take the Telefunkens out and load it with four brand new tubes (and bias it). (Damn 401 you have to take the chassis out to do the bias...what a pain.)

I'll get your tubes out today.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 05-11-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverRatt

Well, I struck out in my 12BZ7 quest. I did find a few 12BY7s but I wasn't sure if they were a legitimate substitute or not. Any ideas?

The 12BY7's were used, I believe in some old Fenders. They are low gain tubes. Also, the basing is different and I wouldn't recommend swapping them as damage could result. A 12AX7 has a "9A" pinout and the 12BY7 has a "9BF" pinout.

Marty

MartyStrat54 · 05-11-2009, 05:18 PM

Joe: I managed to get your tubes out. I sent you a regular comcast email and a PM. Look it over and give me your thoughts on the AT and the 51.

Marty

joshuaaewallen · 05-11-2009, 05:58 PM

Thanks to our man Marty there's a new(NOS) ICBM in the house that I am just jonesin' to get into my amp. It's a Raytheon BP (35/35). Here's the pics...

Boy, oh boy... I can't wait!!!

MartyStrat54 · 05-11-2009, 06:56 PM

Your complete satisfaction is guaranteed. I am looking forward to your tests and comments, especially with a BZ7 in the rig.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 05-12-2009, 12:02 AM

Josh those are some cool pics. Can't wait to hear bout it man.

solarburnDSL50 · 05-12-2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Joe: I managed to get your tubes out. I sent you a regular comcast email and a PM. Look it over and give me your thoughts on the AT and the 51.

Marty

Got your messages Marty and I am looking forward to trying the NOS sardines coming in! The 5751 looks like its a mean one.

You know how I like mixing the gainers vs the low gainers(AT7). Gonna be neat to see how it all pans out using the NT for testing. You are right about it being a good amp to test tubes in.

That is a drag you have to pull the chassis out on the 401 to bias. On well. At least you know how to do all that. Opens up a whole new world of tone once you can bias the amp. Glad I learned! Keep us posted on the dogs I sent ya.

Joe

MartyStrat54 · 05-12-2009, 04:28 PM

Yeah, I can't wait to find out if the 5751 acts like a 12AX7. I mean it tested so damn high, you have to wonder what the gain factor is on that tube? 5751's were made to run quiet, so if this has more gain than a regular 5751, in a ways it becomes like a 7025, which is an extra quiet, high gain 12AX7. This is probably going to be a V1 tube with say an RCA in V2. That should produce the blues sound you like so much. I've never tested that tube in an amp, so I am really more curious about its gain factor than anything else, but after all, it's a Tung-Sol.

I have taken a look at the tubes you sent me. Thank you, BTW.

The older Tung-Sol's were made with longer plates. Now they have short plates and the Mullards have long plates. The JJ's have long plates as well. One of my 602's came with two tubes marked, "Marshall" and the other two were Sovtek WA's. I can't stand the WA or the WB, as they both are prone to microphonics and they are screechy in the mid-highs. The shame is the Sovteks look like well made tubes. Their best AX7 is the LPS and it is not recommended for combo amps (microphonics). The LPS is sort of a copy of a ribbed plate Telefunken. The difference is that you can use the Telefunken in a combo without it breaking up. So just looking at the three brands, the Tung-Sol's are made with the combo in mind. Short, tight plates.

I got real busy with work and I have to take care of business first, but I will give these current production tubes a work out to say, "Mississippi Queen." I just haven't decided what amp to use. My TSL122 is gutted out in the back and it's easy to access all of the tubes, but I thought it would be fun to try some of this out on my 401. I know how it sounds, so putting different tubes in it will catch my ear right away...for the better or worse.

Stay tuned. More to follow.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 05-12-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Yeah, I can't wait to find out if the 5751 acts like a 12AX7. I mean it tested so damn high, you have to wonder what the gain factor is on that tube? 5751's were made to run quiet, so if this has more gain than a regular 5751, in a ways it becomes like a 7025, which is an extra quiet, high gain 12AX7. This is probably going to be a V1 tube with say an RCA in V2. That should produce the blues sound you like so much. I've never tested that tube in an amp, so I am really more curious about its gain factor than anything else, but after all, it's a Tung-Sol.

I have taken a look at the tubes you sent me. Thank you, BTW.

The older Tung-Sol's were made with longer plates. Now they have short plates and the Mullards have long plates. The JJ's have long plates as well. One of my 602's came with two tubes marked, "Marshall" and the other two were Sovtek WA's. I can't stand the WA or the WB, as they both are prone to microphonics and they are screechy in the mid-highs. The shame is the Sovteks look like well made tubes. Their best AX7 is the LPS and it is not recommended for combo amps (microphonics). The LPS is sort of a copy of a ribbed plate Telefunken. The difference is that you can use the Telefunken in a combo without it breaking up. So just looking at the three brands, the Tung-Sol's are made with the combo in mind. Short, tight plates.

I got real busy with work and I have to take care of business first, but I will give these current production tubes a work out to say, "Mississippi Queen." I just haven't decided what amp to use. My TSL122 is gutted out in the back and it's easy to access all of the tubes, but I thought it would be fun to try some of this out on my 401. I know how it sounds, so putting different tubes in it will catch my ear right away...for the better or worse.

Stay tuned. More to follow.

Marty

Here is how I rank those new production tubes in my Marshall, NT and my HT Dual pedal which uses 1 12AX7.

1. Mullard is my favorite now. Use to be the Tung Sol but I like the Mullard across all 3 circuits I'm using it in. Warm, smooth but good frequency range and nice gain. Works good in any position.
2. Tung Sol next. Warm, fat pretty good gain. Seems to pay off in V1.
3. JJ's. Flat frequency, lifeless high gain tube. It was bad in all 3 circuits I used it in. Others really like them and that's cool it works for them.

I know what you mean about the Sovtec WA's. Now I like and use the LPS in my Marshall which of course is a head. I don't have to worry about it like in the combo. Usually I use it in the PI but I have tried it in V1 and it put a little hair on the gain in a good way, I thought. It did well in the NT too. Never tried it in the HT Dual.

The 5751 is going to be interesting since its testing so high. We'll see how that pans out. I'll put it in V1 and go from there with the mixes. I'll be testing it in the NT first. I finally added some delay to the NT and man does it sound tasty! I really like the amp. It ain't big and bad like the DSL but its light and toneful and has its own neat little personality that oozez's the bluzez's.

Whenever you get a chance to demo them new dogs I look forward to hearing about your opinion. Try both amps and take your time man. Have fun!

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 08:53 AM

Hey Marty check this out. Somebody recommended these tubes to this guy:

Quote:

I was all set to dump my DSL 100 because I was sick of the harsh treble and undefined distortion. Your recommendation to add a Mullard CV4024
and GE 5751 were dead on. With the Mullard in V1 and GE in V2, the amp sounds like a new animal. The distortion is round, and smooth, yet
still very aggressive, and the cleans are great as well. My rhythm work sounds so defined, even at high gain, and the leads just have nice,
thick fat edge to them. Overall, the Marshall sounds so much more musical and articulate with these tubes in it. It really puts the JJ's
that were in it to shame. You've totally opened my eyes to just how much of a difference tubes can make.

Another guy like me! I had to post this to elicit a giggle or 2 from you. I wonder how many more are out there taming their Marshall's like this?

Of course getting the JJ's out of the preamp must have been a significant change anyways. Those who like JJ's preamp tubes ignore me. Its a personal preference. I hate flat undefined preamp tubes mucking up my tone.

MartyStrat54 · 05-14-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Hey Marty check this out. Somebody recommended these tubes to this guy:

Another guy like me! I had to post this to elicit a giggle or 2 from you. I wonder how many more are out there taming their Marshall's like this?

Of course getting the JJ's out of the preamp must have been a significant change anyways. Those who like JJ's preamp tubes ignore me. Its a personal preference. I hate flat undefined preamp tubes mucking up my tone.

Wow! Another Joe walking around. Incredible! No, actually it's not a big shock. Some people prefer a little "rounding off" of the high gain. As you told me, you may not prefer it 100 per cent of the time, but for certain situations it's the sound that you shoot for. Using those tubes is not going to kill the amp. The example I like to use is, "It just changes the window for tone capabilities." With AX7's the tone window is different and so is the gain. Using lower gain tubes mean that you will find yourself turning up the master volume more to get to a stage level sound. You should be able to turn the master up quite high without any breakup, unless you are using an OD or distortion pedal. Lower gain tubes basically prevent the power tubes from getting snotty. As I said, they will stay pretty much clean.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Wow! Another Joe walking around. Incredible! No, actually it's not a big shock. Some people prefer a little "rounding off" of the high gain. As you told me, you may not prefer it 100 per cent of the time, but for certain situations it's the sound that you shoot for. Using those tubes is not going to kill the amp. The example I like to use is, "It just changes the window for tone capabilities." With AX7's the tone window is different and so is the gain. Using lower gain tubes mean that you will find yourself turning up the master volume more to get to a stage level sound. You should be able to turn the master up quite high without any breakup, unless you are using an OD or distortion pedal. Lower gain tubes basically prevent the power tubes from getting snotty. As I said, they will stay pretty much clean.

Marty

I like my Marshall pissed off once in awhile so the 12AX7 infusion of NOS is staying in it.

Besides I have the NT for my subtler playing.

steelhorse · 05-14-2009, 04:08 PM

What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp and then spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated.

I'll take 'flat and undefined' against your investment any day at a gig and we'll see how many come up to you and say omg, your tone was SO much better than that guy!

Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me

Sorry I couldn't ignore the JJ statement.

MartyStrat54 · 05-14-2009, 04:11 PM

Just got a nice surprise in the mail. I bid on seven 6BQ5/EL84's the other day. It was a Power Seller and he just had them listed as, "Seven Sylvania 6BQ5's, NOS." No test figures as he was selling them NOS. I get the tubes and I get 8 instead of 7. Wow!

That was a plus for several reasons. I take them out of the boxes to test them and, "Holy Cow," five of them are black plate.

I test the BP's and they all match perfectly within one to two points. Out of the three gray plates, one was older and a mouse had ate the end of the box off. It tested 82 and the other two tested 86. The BP's tested between 86 and 88.

Other tube news: I won three NOS, NIB 7025's. Can't wait to test them. This is the ultimate V1 tube, especially if it reads at least 27/27. Perfect for matching up to an ICBM in V2. In addition, I won two RCA 7025's and I am waiting on them. I have just a small number of 7025's left, maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to restock. I also have two new in box 12AX7A Westinghouse tubes coming in. Finally, I received two Mullard Blackburn plant XF4 EL34's. I was able to get them for $99 plus shipping. I tested them and they test at a whooping 99/100.

So now I have a pair of Mullards for my other 602. Like I say, a good, balanced retubing is like doing a mod on your amp. You can hear the difference.

Marty

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp and then spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated.

I'll take 'flat and undefined' against your investment any day at a gig and we'll see how many come up to you and say omg, your tone was SO much better than that guy!

Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me

Sorry I couldn't ignore the JJ statement.

I know you like them SH but I'm not afraid to say I don't. I told you to ignore me. So touchy!

I need all the help I can get tone wise man. You would too if you played like me.

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyStrat54

Just got a nice surprise in the mail. I bid on seven 6BQ5/EL84's the other day. It was a Power Seller and he just had them listed as, "Seven Sylvania 6BQ5's, NOS." No test figures as he was selling them NOS. I get the tubes and I get 8 instead of 7. Wow!

That was a plus for several reasons. I take them out of the boxes to test them and, "Holy Cow," five of them are black plate.

I test the BP's and they all match perfectly within one to two points. Out of the three gray plates, one was older and a mouse had ate the end of the box off. It tested 82 and the other two tested 86. The BP's tested between 86 and 88.

Other tube news: I won three NOS, NIB 7025's. Can't wait to test them. This is the ultimate V1 tube, especially if it reads at least 27/27. Perfect for matching up to an ICBM in V2. In addition, I won two RCA 7025's and I am waiting on them. I have just a small number of 7025's left, maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to restock. I also have two new in box 12AX7A Westinghouse tubes coming in. Finally, I received two Mullard Blackburn plant XF4 EL34's. I was able to get them for $99 plus shipping. I tested them and they test at a whooping 99/100.

So now I have a pair of Mullards for my other 602. Like I say, a good, balanced retubing is like doing a mod on your amp. You can hear the difference.

Marty

What are NIB 7025's? Ooh, I want to hear about the Mullard El34's and how they sound. You are having too much fun with the glass. Keep me posted.

New In Box 7025's. Google was my friend.

steelhorse · 05-14-2009, 06:33 PM

My bad, I was being facetious, mostly

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

My bad, I was being facetious, mostly

Well, I came off a bit nasty about the JJ's. I'll try to control my malicious mischief after all someone was not going to like my comment.

Peace my Brother of dandy tones!

steelhorse · 05-14-2009, 06:47 PM

heh, it's all good

steelhorse · 05-14-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen

Thanks to our man Marty there's a new(NOS) ICBM in the house that I am just jonesin' to get into my amp. It's a Raytheon BP (35/35). Here's the pics...

Boy, oh boy... I can't wait!!!

ooohhh pretty

solarburnDSL50 · 05-14-2009, 07:08 PM

Are we sick? Why does that look so sexy...

and the last one looks like its burn'n.

MartyStrat54 · 05-14-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

My bad, I was being facetious, mostly

No you're not. I'm of that small percentage of players who crave NOS tubes. Like a story about Marshall's heritage, I feel the same way about a 1962 GE Short Plate as someone would cherish a Plexi. There are some who would say, "He spent $5000 for an all original Plexi. He could have bought himself a new Marshall like a VM or a 410." The same holds true for the need for old tubes. I could by the current stuff, but to me, NOS adds character to your amp.

As far a someone in a crowd recognizing my tone over anyone else's? Ain't gonna happen, because not only can the crowd not sense a players tone, they cannot sense talent. I've seen the worst guitar players get the biggest applause. So that in itself makes the tone issue a moot point.

I told Puffer Fish that as long as I can buy a 12AX7 NOS for $25, that is what I will be running in my amps. From a technical standpoint, NOS tubes can handle a lot more plate voltage. Some of the current preamp tubes are designed right at the voltage operating point. This gives no ground for error. If you get a slight voltage surge, damage could result. Also, I still hold that the quality of materials and coatings used are better than what they are using today. Back when tubes ruled, it was all about making a tube that was better than the competition...spare no costs. Nowadays, it's all about the cost per unit and the bottom line. This formula usually means cheap, cheap, cheap. I mean it is bad when the Tube Store advertises that Sovtek's are no good for combos. To me, that is like saying cheap tube, do not buy. However, what is worse is that one of my 602's came from the factory with two Sovtek WA's in it (V3 and V4) and they are horrible!

I've never met an NOS tube I didn't like. (He-He, that's my Will Rogers imitation.)

There will come a day when NOS will no longer be available. By then, I will be near retirement and I probably will have sold all my gear off. In 2020 how much do you think an RCA 12AX7 will bring?

Some people like to roll tubes and the whole point is to get the best tone with the tubes available. Maybe you have six. Maybe you have sixty. The point is, it's harmless fun. You stick one in and maybe it puts a smile on your face when you palm mute a broken A chord and you can tell the difference over the tube you had pulled out. A while back, I was happy with the NOS tubes in my amp. But because of this forum, I realized that my amps could sound even better. It doesn't matter if anyone else can tell it, it only matters to me. Two tubes changed my whole perception about how my amps could (and should) sound. Now I've replaced tubes in my other amps as well, making sure I have a high gainer in V2 and a 7025 in V1. That is what really makes my TSL's come alive with a super clean channel and crunch-a-bunch.

Now for a while I got a little nuts with tube rolling and was spending too much time on it, but that was because I had a lot of experimenting to do. Now that I've found the formula, I can drop it a notch or two. What I have learned is that NOS tubes have character. (Did I say that already?)

Marty

:l augh2:

MartyStrat54 · 05-14-2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

What are NIB 7025's? Ooh, I want to hear about the Mullard El34's and how they sound. You are having too much fun with the glass. Keep me posted.

New In Box 7025's. Google was my friend.

That's right, it means New In Box. These are cherished over NOS tubes that may be sold with or without the original box. What it means is that you are getting a tube that is still in its original box and never used. Swwweeeet!

I can't wait to get the Mullards in. I called them EL34's, but they are actually 6CA7's. Probably made for sale in the US only. Basically the same tube. I'm just happy that they tested so strong. The 602's run a lot hotter B+ at 500V and these old Mullards just laugh at that, as they can take 800V. Once I get them in place and biased, I will give you a tone report. Looks like a lot of this is going to be this weekend.

Marty

steelhorse · 05-14-2009, 11:17 PM

How can you prove that it's actually never been played or used though? I'm just wondering is there some fool proof scientific method to prove that's the case?

I'm a skeptic of such claims which is why I ask.

solarburnDSL50 · 05-15-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

How can you prove that it's actually never been played or used though? I'm just wondering is there some fool proof scientific method to prove that's the case?

I'm a skeptic of such claims which is why I ask.

Would you care about a full proof scientific method if the tube tested as "good"? If after that test you roll it in your amp and find the position that sounds best. Then you use that tube for a very long time and it performs and outlasts a new production tube by a significant time span. The only way to find that out is a real world test.

So after some financial risk, cause you pay more money for what is perceived to be better tone and a longer lasting tube, you find out:
1. It offered better tone and longevity.
2. It is worth it to me compared to new production tubes.

Now with new production tubes I have to take the vendor's word that he has the machine to properly burn in a tube and he is actually using it. That when matched is stated its what I am really getting. Are the numbers written on the tubes really representative of the testing procedure or are they just a dressing to make it appear so. What full proof scientific test do I have at my disposal to use on these tubes so I know I am getting what I'm suppose to? Warrantees generally last 90 days so at least there is some recourse early on for failure. After that we all in the same boat.

Initially I have to just trust that I'm getting what I'm paying for. Then my tests begin. In the amp it goes and I play. The test last as long as the tubes do. I come to my conclusions and probably share my findings with others.

To me after testing a NOS tube and finding it is good, the only scientific test a person has left to do is put it in their amp and see what happens for how long.

If you get stuck at "show me a full proof scientific test" that the tube is NIB then you take a pass on the real important stuff like how does the tube perform and will it last. There is a risk involved. Do I take a chance? Whats the penalty for failure versus the desired outcome?

IMO if you can't test a NOS, NIB tube then you are foolish to buy them. You got to be able to tell if it is in working order or not. The guy or vendor better take em' back after initial testing too if bad. Marty is my scientific tester and I don't even consider spending alot of money anyways even though I'm interested in NOS tubes. Every once in awhile its fun to do NOS for me. Its given me better tone characteristics I like in my Marshall. I can use new production tubes just fine. Hell I'll play SS if that's all I have and enjoy it cause I get to play. Its my back up rig anyways.

steelhorse · 05-15-2009, 03:38 PM

Not sure where you were going with this but all I wanted to know was how you were ensured they were actually NIB NOS?

There is a premium for those tubes correct?

It doesn't matter to me personally either way I'm just posing the question because I'm not going to pay a premium for anything unless I have assurances and some way of corroborating the claims of the dealer and that's just not for tubes either.

So in the end after pretty much not getting a straight answer there is no way to tell.

Like someone else in another thread say why pay a few hundred dollars for an amp only to spend hundreds upon hundred more on mods and all of these tubes?

Makes more sense to me and imo to chase the amp that already has the tone one is looking for and invest in that instead.

Kind of like buying a car. Why buy a vette only to spend big bucks trying to get it to perform like a Ferrari, why not just invest in the real thing?

solarburnDSL50 · 05-15-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

Not sure where you were going with this but all I wanted to know was how you were ensured they were actually NIB NOS?

There is a premium for those tubes correct?

It doesn't matter to me personally either way I'm just posing the question because I'm not going to pay a premium for anything unless I have assurances and some way of corroborating the claims of the dealer and that's just not for tubes either.

So in the end after pretty much not getting a straight answer there is no way to tell.

Like someone else in another thread say why pay a few hundred dollars for an amp only to spend hundreds upon hundred more on mods and all of these tubes?

Makes more sense to me and imo to chase the amp that already has the tone one is looking for and invest in that instead.

Kind of like buying a car. Why buy a vette only to spend big bucks trying to get it to perform like a Ferrari, why not just invest in the real thing?

Wow. After all that you get to dismiss it as if one little query wasn't addressed or answered. Last time I go there.

I need to take a break from zee forum. I may be getting caught up in stuff I should just pass on. Later peeps.

steelhorse · 05-15-2009, 04:06 PM

It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS?

In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you.

You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes.

I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear.

Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing?

But all it is imo.

MartyStrat54 · 05-15-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelhorse

It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS?

In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you.

You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes.

I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear.

Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing?

But all it is imo.

Let's not blow a boiler!

No need for that. Had a real nasty storm and my whole system was down. Looks like it came back on at the right time.

Steel, if you are buying NIB tubes from a broker, you will pay a flat premium rate. However, if you are buying them on EBAY, just like anything else, you have to trust the seller. I look at what kind of seller they are, like a power seller with 7000 transaction, all mostly electronics. If he has a 96 per cent or better feedback, chances are he isn't going to lie about what he is selling.

Now for an example. I bid on three, NIB Lindal 7025's. My first thought is that Lindal didn't make tubes so they have been relabeled. All three tubes had been tested and one was normal, but two were high gain tubes. That's a plus. The tubes arrive and upon inspection, all of the print on the tubes are perfect. The glass is shiny and the pins aren't corroded. A quick glance at the etched tube number proves the tubes were made by RCA. Another big plus. At a winning bid of $51, I'm more than happy. (This is less than $20 a piece and that is in the same price range as a current production tube.)

If I win any tubes and some or all of them are dogs, I contact the seller and I return some, or all of them for a refund.

The bottom line is that these tubes in some instances are as old as me. It would be impossible to be 100 per cent positive that a tube has remained untouched in its box for 54 years. However, when a tube is sold as NOS NIB, it gives creditability to the tube itself. You know that when it arrives, it will be in a factory box and the tube itself will show no visible signs of wear or use.

Can a NOS tube go bad after a couple of weeks? Yes, but its never happened to me. Can a JJ go bad in a couple of weeks? Yes, and I've had that happen to me.

Joe sent me some new, current production tubes and I must say that the Mullards and the Tung-Sol's aren't that bad. I auditioned them in my DSL401 and I A/B'd them up against some pretty heavy competition like Amperex and real Mullards and a Raytheon Black Plate. The new stuff sounds good and I will give it a passing grade. If it was the only thing around, I would gladly use it, but I ended up with an RCA 7025 in V1 (33/35), an Amperex 12AX7 in V2 (31/31), an RCA 12AX7 short gray plate in V3 the tone stack (26/25) and a RCA short gray plate in V4 (26/28). For power, I installed four NOS NIB Sylvania 6BQ5 Black Plates from 1966. I biased these tubes almost as hot as the trim pot would let me go. These tubes can take high bias. I had Telefunkens in there and the BP's sound better. My 401 has never sounded this good. I want to plug it into one of my 4 X 12 cabs and run it that way.

Again, these are just my findings. They please me and that's alright. As I said, I'm not out to please the world...just me. I play that 401 all of the time and I know how it sounds and now it sounds better. In fact, I wish that I could bump the bias up hotter. I can, if I want to do a resistor mod on the bias circuit. The amp would probably sound even better.

So Steelhorse, this was a lot of wind in an attempt to answer your question. The bottom line is that you take a risk with any tube you buy, new or old. However you buy it, you'll want to make sure that you can return it if it doesn't meet your specifications. Also, I value your opinion. Not everyone is going to go ga-ga over NOS tubes and that's fine. I've told Josh that I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a big fan of the Yellow Jackets. He understands and he knows that not everyone is going to go out and buy a pair. So if you want to air out anything negative about NOS tubes, you have my permission. That's what the forum and this thread are all about.

Marty

steelhorse · 05-15-2009, 05:44 PM

The primary difference is new tubes are warrantied and like I said this isn't bash and I mean that, it's puzzling that so much is invested in these things.

Far as I can tell you and a few others here are serious hobbyists about tubes and seem to know your stuff and if I had a question about how far to bias a particular tube I'd be as apt to ask you, Marty, then I would anyone else.

I'm dangling on the fence on whether to get one of my VM's modded by FJA not because of his price because it's really not bad price considering what I'm wanting done (please no questions about that because that's something I'd rather someone ask him directly since it is his business, I'm just a potential customer), it's the shipping back and forth that I'm needing to accept, but I'd be more apt to invest in that sort of thing that also increases the value (after all it's not one of the holy grail amps that should be pristine) and versatility (it would make it a 2 channel 2 mode amp + ) that's the primary reason I'm asking, no offense intended.

05-11-2009, 05:18 PM	#273 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 4,958	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Joe: I managed to get your tubes out. I sent you a regular comcast email and a PM. Look it over and give me your thoughts on the AT and the 51. Marty

05-11-2009, 05:58 PM	#274 (permalink)
joshuaaewallen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 372	Re: Preamp Tubes... A New Arrival In The Family Thanks to our man Marty there's a new(NOS) ICBM in the house that I am just jonesin' to get into my amp. It's a Raytheon BP (35/35). Here's the pics... Boy, oh boy... I can't wait!!! __________________ Josh 2004 PRS Custom 24 10 Top 1999 Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 122 - Power Tubes: JJ EL34L's - Assorted New & Vintage pre-amp tubes... I like to roll... HardWire DL-8 Delay/Looper http://irkinempire.spaces.live.com/ http://irkinempireoutpost1977.blogspot.com/ "... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - Futurama Last edited by joshuaaewallen; 05-12-2009 at 06:13 AM.

05-11-2009, 06:56 PM	#275 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 4,958	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Your complete satisfaction is guaranteed. I am looking forward to your tests and comments, especially with a BZ7 in the rig. Marty

05-12-2009, 04:28 PM	#278 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 4,958	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Yeah, I can't wait to find out if the 5751 acts like a 12AX7. I mean it tested so damn high, you have to wonder what the gain factor is on that tube? 5751's were made to run quiet, so if this has more gain than a regular 5751, in a ways it becomes like a 7025, which is an extra quiet, high gain 12AX7. This is probably going to be a V1 tube with say an RCA in V2. That should produce the blues sound you like so much. I've never tested that tube in an amp, so I am really more curious about its gain factor than anything else, but after all, it's a Tung-Sol. I have taken a look at the tubes you sent me. Thank you, BTW. The older Tung-Sol's were made with longer plates. Now they have short plates and the Mullards have long plates. The JJ's have long plates as well. One of my 602's came with two tubes marked, "Marshall" and the other two were Sovtek WA's. I can't stand the WA or the WB, as they both are prone to microphonics and they are screechy in the mid-highs. The shame is the Sovteks look like well made tubes. Their best AX7 is the LPS and it is not recommended for combo amps (microphonics). The LPS is sort of a copy of a ribbed plate Telefunken. The difference is that you can use the Telefunken in a combo without it breaking up. So just looking at the three brands, the Tung-Sol's are made with the combo in mind. Short, tight plates. I got real busy with work and I have to take care of business first, but I will give these current production tubes a work out to say, "Mississippi Queen." I just haven't decided what amp to use. My TSL122 is gutted out in the back and it's easy to access all of the tubes, but I thought it would be fun to try some of this out on my 401. I know how it sounds, so putting different tubes in it will catch my ear right away...for the better or worse. Stay tuned. More to follow. Marty

05-14-2009, 04:08 PM	#283 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp and then spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated. I'll take 'flat and undefined' against your investment any day at a gig and we'll see how many come up to you and say omg, your tone was SO much better than that guy! Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me Sorry I couldn't ignore the JJ statement. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

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05-14-2009, 04:11 PM	#284 (permalink)
MartyStrat54 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Formerly Phoenix, now north of KC Posts: 4,958	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Just got a nice surprise in the mail. I bid on seven 6BQ5/EL84's the other day. It was a Power Seller and he just had them listed as, "Seven Sylvania 6BQ5's, NOS." No test figures as he was selling them NOS. I get the tubes and I get 8 instead of 7. Wow! That was a plus for several reasons. I take them out of the boxes to test them and, "Holy Cow," five of them are black plate. I test the BP's and they all match perfectly within one to two points. Out of the three gray plates, one was older and a mouse had ate the end of the box off. It tested 82 and the other two tested 86. The BP's tested between 86 and 88. Other tube news: I won three NOS, NIB 7025's. Can't wait to test them. This is the ultimate V1 tube, especially if it reads at least 27/27. Perfect for matching up to an ICBM in V2. In addition, I won two RCA 7025's and I am waiting on them. I have just a small number of 7025's left, maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to restock. I also have two new in box 12AX7A Westinghouse tubes coming in. Finally, I received two Mullard Blackburn plant XF4 EL34's. I was able to get them for $99 plus shipping. I tested them and they test at a whooping 99/100. So now I have a pair of Mullards for my other 602. Like I say, a good, balanced retubing is like doing a mod on your amp. You can hear the difference. Marty

05-14-2009, 06:33 PM	#287 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? My bad, I was being facetious, mostly __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

05-14-2009, 06:47 PM	#289 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? heh, it's all good __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

05-14-2009, 11:17 PM	#294 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? How can you prove that it's actually never been played or used though? I'm just wondering is there some fool proof scientific method to prove that's the case? I'm a skeptic of such claims which is why I ask. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

05-15-2009, 03:38 PM	#296 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? Not sure where you were going with this but all I wanted to know was how you were ensured they were actually NIB NOS? There is a premium for those tubes correct? It doesn't matter to me personally either way I'm just posing the question because I'm not going to pay a premium for anything unless I have assurances and some way of corroborating the claims of the dealer and that's just not for tubes either. So in the end after pretty much not getting a straight answer there is no way to tell. Like someone else in another thread say why pay a few hundred dollars for an amp only to spend hundreds upon hundred more on mods and all of these tubes? Makes more sense to me and imo to chase the amp that already has the tone one is looking for and invest in that instead. Kind of like buying a car. Why buy a vette only to spend big bucks trying to get it to perform like a Ferrari, why not just invest in the real thing? __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

05-15-2009, 04:06 PM	#298 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS? In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you. You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes. I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear. Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing? But all it is imo. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

05-15-2009, 05:44 PM	#300 (permalink)
steelhorse Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,952	Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? The primary difference is new tubes are warrantied and like I said this isn't bash and I mean that, it's puzzling that so much is invested in these things. Far as I can tell you and a few others here are serious hobbyists about tubes and seem to know your stuff and if I had a question about how far to bias a particular tube I'd be as apt to ask you, Marty, then I would anyone else. I'm dangling on the fence on whether to get one of my VM's modded by FJA not because of his price because it's really not bad price considering what I'm wanting done (please no questions about that because that's something I'd rather someone ask him directly since it is his business, I'm just a potential customer), it's the shipping back and forth that I'm needing to accept, but I'd be more apt to invest in that sort of thing that also increases the value (after all it's not one of the holy grail amps that should be pristine) and versatility (it would make it a 2 channel 2 mode amp + ) that's the primary reason I'm asking, no offense intended. __________________ www.ricojronline.com 760-956-6619 Garmopat Pedal Mods "I wouldn't mind hearing your head smash through a glass door. That would be cool..." luekmeyer

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