At the crossroads... advice?

V-man · 04-08-2011, 12:42 PM

I think I am at a point with my gear where I have to make the best of the situation and maximize the potential, or weigh the options of heavy investment into other amps. I imagine that many of you have been at this crossroads yourselves, and I am curious which way you did go, which way you would in retrospect, or what your feedback is in general...

I have 2 Marshalls and my favorite sounds are high gain thrash. My first Marshall, the infamous 4100 JCM 900 (that I believe draws most criticism from misunderstanding) is playable at bedroom volumes, but the at such levels, the distortion is awful. I believe the strength of this amp is when naturally overdriven at volumes that are not acceptable for the neighborhood. My second Marshall, a 1992 JCM 800 Superbass has unimaginable raw potential, but it has an uncorruptable clean tone that doesn't even hint at breakup until you push this non-master amp past 8.

I believe the adage that people usualy throw out at this time is "when your amp is not doing precisely what you want, you may find a different amp the simplest (and sometimes cheapest in the long run) solution." I would not argue that an affordable used Mode Four, 2100 SLX, or paying a premium on a new 2203x, 2203kk or some "Bognatious Firecorbra" solution wouldn't yield better results, but herein lies the rub...

I am fairly convinced (until persuaded otherwise) that such a better-tailored amp, might sound way better than what I have in a fullbore A-B, but when neutered to bedroom volume levels, the $300-$1,500+ may not be worth the marginal improvement, as ALL these amps are geared for volumes louder than the dictates of neighborhood courtesy. If this statement is valid, then the question becomes which of the following options makes the most sense:

- Just get an attenuator and see what shakes out
- The painful "tailored amp" plus attenuator long term goal
- Some legendary dirt pedal as an aid
- <shudder> some modeling software

All advice is considered, but if the dirt pedal route is suggested, bear in mind I really need something stellar for this to be viable. I already have a TS9, a MXR 104, A pair of MXR 108 EQs, and I was recently gifted with a nostalgic DOD Thrashmaster. I can't abide paying money for a "good" or "best bang for the buck" pedal, since I have a handful of "so-so/meh" options for free... I am thinking unparalled metal sound in a box (if it exists). I have some interest in the Emma PisdiYAUwot, but haven't seriously researched dirt boxes in years.

Advice?

chuckharmonjr · 04-08-2011, 12:52 PM

V-man...just a thought...but how bout getting a DSL, do some of the Joey Mods from here...get some killer tubes...and be done with it? Mine absolutely will rip your face off when cranked up (5 or higher)....but it still sounds damned good at 2. They sell all day for 5-600, 100 bucks wortha new tubes, 50-100 bucks of electronic parts and some soldering time-you're good to go.

JayCM800 · 04-08-2011, 01:00 PM

After reading your long ass post...

You need to MOVE to the country side... or PLAY IN A BAND! Put yourself in a position where you NEED to crank those cool amps you have! Shows, rehearsals, recordings... Marshall half stacks ain't for playing in quiet densely populated neighborhoods.

Get the new Class 5 (with half-power switch) to get your Marshall fix between rehearsals with the big toys.

As for high gain thrash metal tone, i'm 100% percent biased towards Marshall and especially the 2203KK, so you might want to ignore my opinion on that.

RiverRatt · 04-08-2011, 01:07 PM

One solution I've found is a Digitech GSP preamp. The GSP1101 is really versatile and plugs in to the front end of your amp (or 2 amps for stereo!) so you're using the full signal path of your amp. It's a little pricey but I think it's worth it. It seems to retain the touch and feel of the amp better than a lot of effects I've used.

Crunchcity · 04-08-2011, 01:08 PM

The JVM will do thrash tones at bedroom volume levels imo.

The other amps you mentioned are still quite loud and not the most bedroom friendly.

If you're willing to use boost pedals or even a pedal as your main distortion generator (like with your superbass), then the other options you listed are all viable but perhaps not the optimum solution for your situation.

Australian · 04-08-2011, 01:12 PM

V-Man work with what youve got and you'll get your sound. Dont get caught up in the grass is greener on the other side with amps. Which is easy to do on these Forums when everyone is suggesting this is better than that
I've heard some great recordings with the 900's. And I know for sure that the 900 really can shine when doing Metal. Maybe get it modded like others have said. Or use a pedal with it at low volumes.

Blisster · 04-08-2011, 01:20 PM

I play thrash.
I use a boosted DSL 100. It sounds great at bedroom levels. At practice/gigging levels it sounds MONSTEROUS.
I picked it up for < $600.00.

I've gotten lots of compliments on my tone. It's high gain, but still very clear and sharp.

kamran · 04-08-2011, 03:02 PM

what cab/speaker set up are you running?

diesect20022000 · 04-08-2011, 03:27 PM

buy an attenuator or get a little amp for home use.

V-man · 04-08-2011, 03:54 PM

I have 3:

the 4100 runs through the stock 1960A with GT75s (I believe still UK made then)

The 1992 shares time between an Avatar traditional 412 with V30s, or an Ampeg 410

I have also tried recording via a loop pedal through the FX loop at all volumes on the distortion channel and find a thin, buzzy quality that grates on the ears. Naturally overdriven, the A channel (and I believe the B channel as well) sound like different animals than the bedroom master volume compromizes.

madmmx · 04-08-2011, 04:04 PM

I would ditch the 900 and get a DSL in its place. A PPIMV would be something to consider on the Superbass. The PPIMV sounds decent at lower volumes. I wouldnt ever get rid of that Superbass. Lots of great tones in that amp

V-man · 04-08-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmmx

I would ditch the 900 and get a DSL in its place. A PPIMV would be something to consider on the Superbass. The PPIMV sounds decent at lower volumes. I wouldnt ever get rid of that Superbass. Lots of great tones in that amp

The 900 is the first Marshall and valve amp I ever owned, purchased in HS. Until that fateful day where some retro grunge movement puts a premium on the undervalued JCM 900 series, I find no reason to even consider seperating myself from my HS purchase for the measly sum these amps currently fetch.

My concern with the DSL is that it appears to some as a potentially feasible compromise... with work. That suggests scouring used, then putting some additional work and resources into it for the results. While the end result may be a solution, it seems like more work than its worth compared to tinkering with what's available or investing more capital into a better tailored option. I still greatly appreciate that and all other feedback, however. Keep it coming

hbach · 04-08-2011, 04:37 PM

Do you only jam by yourself?

If so and if money is a big issue sell one of the 100Watters. Try them at a band level, preferably with a band as that changes sound a lot and even check what features are the ones you can't live without for playing live and choose your favorite.
To jam in the bedroom 5W is almost too much. There are plenty of nice amps in the "mini" sector now and they won't break the bank. You might spend more on pedals. If you have cabs you only need a head. I liked the Class5 but it has no MV so you have to run it pretty loud and the one I tried did rattle.
Check the Orange TT. It sounds absolutely mean. Or a Blackstar 1W amp that costs about $250. You probably can save that much and keep the two Marshalls.

100W at full blast through an attenuator are still damn loud.

drriff · 04-08-2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Australian

V-Man work with what youve got and you'll get your sound. Dont get caught up in the grass is greener on the other side with amps. Which is easy to do on these Forums when everyone is suggesting this is better than thatI've heard some great recordings with the 900's. And I know for sure that the 900 really can shine when doing Metal. Maybe get it modded like others have said. Or use a pedal with it at low volumes.

Hey, I actually do think this is better than that.

V-man · 04-09-2011, 12:48 PM

It makes no sense whatsoever, but plugging it in last night, it sounded amazing... even at low volume. I am quite certain this little game has been played many times. even got a great sound boosted by an unpopular block mxr 104 and 108 eq (with a little chorus was a good judas Priest "hellion" sound).

I still have to consider the 1992, which unless used in true or false stereo as a clean bass boost, needs a driver, but unless a great deal lands in my lap, I suppose I will work with my resources. All past and present input remains appreciated and valuable for my current strategy as well as what I may do in the near future with the right deal in place.

MonstersOfTheMidway · 04-11-2011, 04:01 AM

A JVM might fit the bill nicely. Consider a 210H or 210C for great sound a not as expensive as a 410H.

slash07 · 04-11-2011, 05:46 AM

Amp - Agreed. JVM is the best bet - it has loads of gain even for thrash.
Pedals - I can not recommend the Blackstar pedals highly enough, and I do not work for them. Check out the HT-DistX. May be you'll like the sounds. They are possibly as close to a tube amp you can get, in a pedal - IMO.
Good luck with whichever way you choose.

TwinACStacks · 04-11-2011, 06:55 AM

Sorry, But you lost me at "high gain thrash". Get an ENGL or something as equally high gain.

TWIN

Ken · 04-11-2011, 08:54 AM

The biggest problem with the 900 DR is just what you discovered: it doesn't do low volume distortion well at all because of the diode clipping preamp and the fact the best tone comes from the power tubes when you blast it. Both the DSL and JVM do both bedroom and high volume quite well. A pedal in front of both your 800 and your Super Bass should sound amazing, don't discount that option. For new amps, also consider a Haze or Class 5.

The DSL is by far the least expensive way to go (outside of a pedal and maybe an EQ) and it's just as good as the other Marshalls; the JVM is the most expensive but also has the most features. But let your ears be your guide; you'll be happiest in the long run that way.

Ken

***crossroadsnyc*** · 04-11-2011, 09:35 AM

There are enough good dirt pedals out there to enable you to use your amps at home (dirty sound at lower volume levels), w/out having to completely scrap your current rig. This is particularly true if the Marshall sound is your game, as there are a plethora of Marshall-voiced pedals out there for you to choose from (including the Marshall pedals themselves ... for example, you might find something like a Guv'Nor or Jackhammer to be a very good fit for your sound).

04-08-2011, 12:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
V-man Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,821	At the crossroads... advice? I think I am at a point with my gear where I have to make the best of the situation and maximize the potential, or weigh the options of heavy investment into other amps. I imagine that many of you have been at this crossroads yourselves, and I am curious which way you did go, which way you would in retrospect, or what your feedback is in general... I have 2 Marshalls and my favorite sounds are high gain thrash. My first Marshall, the infamous 4100 JCM 900 (that I believe draws most criticism from misunderstanding) is playable at bedroom volumes, but the at such levels, the distortion is awful. I believe the strength of this amp is when naturally overdriven at volumes that are not acceptable for the neighborhood. My second Marshall, a 1992 JCM 800 Superbass has unimaginable raw potential, but it has an uncorruptable clean tone that doesn't even hint at breakup until you push this non-master amp past 8. I believe the adage that people usualy throw out at this time is "when your amp is not doing precisely what you want, you may find a different amp the simplest (and sometimes cheapest in the long run) solution." I would not argue that an affordable used Mode Four, 2100 SLX, or paying a premium on a new 2203x, 2203kk or some "Bognatious Firecorbra" solution wouldn't yield better results, but herein lies the rub... I am fairly convinced (until persuaded otherwise) that such a better-tailored amp, might sound way better than what I have in a fullbore A-B, but when neutered to bedroom volume levels, the $300-$1,500+ may not be worth the marginal improvement, as ALL these amps are geared for volumes louder than the dictates of neighborhood courtesy. If this statement is valid, then the question becomes which of the following options makes the most sense: - Just get an attenuator and see what shakes out - The painful "tailored amp" plus attenuator long term goal - Some legendary dirt pedal as an aid - <shudder> some modeling software All advice is considered, but if the dirt pedal route is suggested, bear in mind I really need something stellar for this to be viable. I already have a TS9, a MXR 104, A pair of MXR 108 EQs, and I was recently gifted with a nostalgic DOD Thrashmaster. I can't abide paying money for a "good" or "best bang for the buck" pedal, since I have a handful of "so-so/meh" options for free... I am thinking unparalled metal sound in a box (if it exists). I have some interest in the Emma PisdiYAUwot, but haven't seriously researched dirt boxes in years. Advice? __________________ If you are wondering why I am no longer posting/on-site: http://www.marshallforum.com/backsta...ds-grunch.html

04-08-2011, 12:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
chuckharmonjr Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: About as far south in Alabama as you can go without swimming Posts: 5,572	Re: At the crossroads... advice? V-man...just a thought...but how bout getting a DSL, do some of the Joey Mods from here...get some killer tubes...and be done with it? Mine absolutely will rip your face off when cranked up (5 or higher)....but it still sounds damned good at 2. They sell all day for 5-600, 100 bucks wortha new tubes, 50-100 bucks of electronic parts and some soldering time-you're good to go. eddiegj likes this. __________________ JCM2000 DSL100 JMD-1 100 Watter JMP800 2204 MG50DFX Vox AD30VT Valvestate 20 1960A 1960B MG412A Seismic Audio 2-12 Black Cherry Les Paul Tobacco Burst Les Paul Black Les Paul Custom Honey Burst Les Paul R8 Les Paul in Tea Burst ES-175 in Cherry EDS-1275 in White Fender Strat in Tobacco Burst Black Charvel Fusion "When it comes to electricity, make sure it's dead before it makes sure YOU ARE!" Im not a Real Tech, But I do play one on TV

04-08-2011, 01:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
JayCM800 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York, New York Posts: 4,294	Re: At the crossroads... advice? After reading your long ass post... You need to MOVE to the country side... or PLAY IN A BAND! Put yourself in a position where you NEED to crank those cool amps you have! Shows, rehearsals, recordings... Marshall half stacks ain't for playing in quiet densely populated neighborhoods. Get the new Class 5 (with half-power switch) to get your Marshall fix between rehearsals with the big toys. As for high gain thrash metal tone, i'm 100% percent biased towards Marshall and especially the 2203KK, so you might want to ignore my opinion on that. Blisster likes this.

04-08-2011, 01:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Crunchcity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 465	Re: At the crossroads... advice? The JVM will do thrash tones at bedroom volume levels imo. The other amps you mentioned are still quite loud and not the most bedroom friendly. If you're willing to use boost pedals or even a pedal as your main distortion generator (like with your superbass), then the other options you listed are all viable but perhaps not the optimum solution for your situation. MonstersOfTheMidway likes this.

04-08-2011, 01:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
Australian Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Saneville Posts: 9,169	Re: At the crossroads... advice? V-Man work with what youve got and you'll get your sound. Dont get caught up in the grass is greener on the other side with amps. Which is easy to do on these Forums when everyone is suggesting this is better than that I've heard some great recordings with the 900's. And I know for sure that the 900 really can shine when doing Metal. Maybe get it modded like others have said. Or use a pedal with it at low volumes. __________________ .................... 1971-JMP 1959 1977- JMP 1959 1982-JCM800 2203 1989-JCM800 2205 Silver Jub 2550 30th Ann1992-6100 2007-JVM410 Super JTM/100JH 2008-1959RR .................... Soldano Hotrod 100+ Boogie Mark V Marshall cabs AHW+BHW/G12H30's; AX+BX/G12M's; White A/GT75's+B/V30's; JCM800 A+B/preRolas; Hendrix A+B/G12C's; Classic/G12M's; Classic/G12h30's; JCM800 B/G12-65's; 1936/V30's; 1936/G1265's; 425B [Blackie:] "Is this the new Marshall Forum sans the bullshit?"

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04-08-2011, 01:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Blisster Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,068	Re: At the crossroads... advice? I play thrash. I use a boosted DSL 100. It sounds great at bedroom levels. At practice/gigging levels it sounds MONSTEROUS. I picked it up for < $600.00. I've gotten lots of compliments on my tone. It's high gain, but still very clear and sharp. __________________ Marshalls: 1992 JCM 200 DSL 100, 2007 JCM 800 2203, 1998 Valvestate VS102r Marshall Cabs: JCM800 1960b G12m-70s, JCM900 1960a G12T-75, 1960 BX Greenbacks Other: MESA Engineering 1991 Dual Rectifier Solo "Pre 500", MESA Oversized Rectifier slant cab w/ V30s

04-08-2011, 03:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
diesect20022000 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 16,631	Re: At the crossroads... advice? buy an attenuator or get a little amp for home use.

04-08-2011, 03:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
V-man Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,821	Re: At the crossroads... advice? I have 3: the 4100 runs through the stock 1960A with GT75s (I believe still UK made then) The 1992 shares time between an Avatar traditional 412 with V30s, or an Ampeg 410 I have also tried recording via a loop pedal through the FX loop at all volumes on the distortion channel and find a thin, buzzy quality that grates on the ears. Naturally overdriven, the A channel (and I believe the B channel as well) sound like different animals than the bedroom master volume compromizes. __________________ If you are wondering why I am no longer posting/on-site: http://www.marshallforum.com/backsta...ds-grunch.html

04-08-2011, 04:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
madmmx Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Warrington, Pa. Posts: 370	Re: At the crossroads... advice? I would ditch the 900 and get a DSL in its place. A PPIMV would be something to consider on the Superbass. The PPIMV sounds decent at lower volumes. I wouldnt ever get rid of that Superbass. Lots of great tones in that amp __________________ 10 Mesa Lonestar Classic 2x12 79 JMP MK2 100 watt Master Lead 10 Vox AC15HW1 11 American Deluxe Strat 08 American Standard Tele 05 SG Standard 72 Les Paul Deluxe 93 Les Paul Studio 01 Firebird V

04-08-2011, 04:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
hbach Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,280	Re: At the crossroads... advice? Do you only jam by yourself? If so and if money is a big issue sell one of the 100Watters. Try them at a band level, preferably with a band as that changes sound a lot and even check what features are the ones you can't live without for playing live and choose your favorite. To jam in the bedroom 5W is almost too much. There are plenty of nice amps in the "mini" sector now and they won't break the bank. You might spend more on pedals. If you have cabs you only need a head. I liked the Class5 but it has no MV so you have to run it pretty loud and the one I tried did rattle. Check the Orange TT. It sounds absolutely mean. Or a Blackstar 1W amp that costs about $250. You probably can save that much and keep the two Marshalls. 100W at full blast through an attenuator are still damn loud.

04-09-2011, 12:48 PM	#15 (permalink)
V-man Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,821	Re: At the crossroads... advice? It makes no sense whatsoever, but plugging it in last night, it sounded amazing... even at low volume. I am quite certain this little game has been played many times. even got a great sound boosted by an unpopular block mxr 104 and 108 eq (with a little chorus was a good judas Priest "hellion" sound). I still have to consider the 1992, which unless used in true or false stereo as a clean bass boost, needs a driver, but unless a great deal lands in my lap, I suppose I will work with my resources. All past and present input remains appreciated and valuable for my current strategy as well as what I may do in the near future with the right deal in place. __________________ If you are wondering why I am no longer posting/on-site: http://www.marshallforum.com/backsta...ds-grunch.html

04-11-2011, 04:01 AM	#16 (permalink)
MonstersOfTheMidway Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: A chair Posts: 2,355	Re: At the crossroads... advice? A JVM might fit the bill nicely. Consider a 210H or 210C for great sound a not as expensive as a 410H. __________________ You have to expect that not everyone is going to like what you like, believe what you believe, or think what you think, so dissenting opinions are valid whether you like it or not!!! Returning from double secret probation.

04-11-2011, 05:46 AM	#17 (permalink)
slash07 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 206	Re: At the crossroads... advice? Amp - Agreed. JVM is the best bet - it has loads of gain even for thrash. Pedals - I can not recommend the Blackstar pedals highly enough, and I do not work for them. Check out the HT-DistX. May be you'll like the sounds. They are possibly as close to a tube amp you can get, in a pedal - IMO. Good luck with whichever way you choose.

04-11-2011, 08:54 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ken Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington Heights, IL Posts: 6,256	Re: At the crossroads... advice? The biggest problem with the 900 DR is just what you discovered: it doesn't do low volume distortion well at all because of the diode clipping preamp and the fact the best tone comes from the power tubes when you blast it. Both the DSL and JVM do both bedroom and high volume quite well. A pedal in front of both your 800 and your Super Bass should sound amazing, don't discount that option. For new amps, also consider a Haze or Class 5. The DSL is by far the least expensive way to go (outside of a pedal and maybe an EQ) and it's just as good as the other Marshalls; the JVM is the most expensive but also has the most features. But let your ears be your guide; you'll be happiest in the long run that way. Ken __________________ 1999 Marshall DSL 50 Music Man 65 Reverb late 1970's (?) Late 1970's (?) Fender Champ Marshall battery amp 1980 Model 1982A 4x12 cabinet G12H-80's 444 cones 1983 Model 1982B 4x12 cabinet G12-80's 444 cones PRO 4x12 from the 1970's Woodson 2x12 1976 Les Paul Standard Epiphone Les Paul knockoff ESP Lawsuit Explorer 1979 Chiquita Travel Guitar 1995 Taylor 310

04-11-2011, 09:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
*crossroadsnyc* Moderator Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 8,170	Re: At the crossroads... advice? There are enough good dirt pedals out there to enable you to use your amps at home (dirty sound at lower volume levels), w/out having to completely scrap your current rig. This is particularly true if the Marshall sound is your game, as there are a plethora of Marshall-voiced pedals out there for you to choose from (including the Marshall pedals themselves ... for example, you might find something like a Guv'Nor or Jackhammer to be a very good fit for your sound).

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