DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner?

Reginald · 09-23-2009, 12:18 PM

Often, the transformers blow out/break down in a Vintage plexi...
Some early Marshall models had Drakes transformers, other ones had Dagnalls.
If I find a '67 plexi with Drakes and another one with Dagnalls in both equal mind condition, which of then has been made with more resistant, durable, indestructible transformer? I.e. which of them has been made better, to hold on, to last more in time?
Who has been made with the best quality materials and the best technical construction?
Which between them was more strong, well-built, more durable, more resistant in time?
Supposing to let's make a performance... supposing we can return back in time at '67 in order to buy whether some Marshall with Drakes or Marshall with Dagnalls both in perfect new stock conditions and perfect construction and supposing we can play them until the year 2090 or more or until one of them will break down/transformers break down.
Which transformer will to resist more in time, which will survive? Which will to be the first for break down? Drakes or Dagnalls types? Which could to be the winner? Which could to be the best transformer?

jcmjmp · 09-23-2009, 12:36 PM

You should go on the metroamp forum to ask these questions. There's a lot of vintage Marshall experts there.

Reginald · 09-25-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmjmp

You should go on the metroamp forum to ask these questions. There's a lot of vintage Marshall experts there.

thanks for the info

DaCookieMonster · 09-29-2009, 11:49 PM

All I can say is that my power transformer on a Jcm 2000 quit working.

ironlung40 · 10-01-2009, 10:43 AM

that's an impossible question to answer especially with these older transformers. Every experienced person I've spoken to on this subject has stated that these type of electronic components of yesteryear were really inconsistent. You have to think of the methods they used to wind them, etc. today the newer transformers, if you buy a good brand like Mercury Magnetics, etc, are more consistently built and therefore will perform more consistent from transformer to transformer.

One specific question I asked a guy at a reputable and large amp building/modding company was..."if I change my Dagnalls out for some Drakes would it help the tone?" ( I had a jcm 800 with dagnalls at the time, and had gotten caught up in the hype that the Drakes are better) Anyway, his response was...."not necessarily, in fact, it may go the other way and sound worse." then he explained the inconsistencies I stated above, in more expert detail of course.

If you put 2 and 2 together, the inconsistencies in the older transformers would explain the adage that many of the older marshalls could sound pretty different even if they were the same model, so if you find a good one hang on to it

With marshalls of the 70's and 80's you really didn't get a choice of drakes vs. dagnalls unless you were also choosing wattage. The 100's for the most part had dagnalls while the 50 watters had drakes. I've got amps with both, and I've got a 30 year old JMP with dagnalls still going strong. If it broke down, depending on my budget at the time, I'd go with mercury magnetic replacement. If budget was a concern I'd just buy a stock replacement from any reputable dealer and not worry about it.

Anyway to the point,

I think you have to take each individual amp for its face value. Play it, and sum up it's value to you. If you like it, buy it and don't worry about the trannies. If you treat it good, and service it any of them will last decades. If they go bad, it sucks, but it happens with gear sometimes. You cannot really predict this occurrence.

I hope this helps you some

Reginald · 10-02-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironlung40

that's an impossible question to answer especially with these older transformers. Every experienced person I've spoken to on this subject has stated that these type of electronic components of yesteryear were really inconsistent. You have to think of the methods they used to wind them, etc. today the newer transformers, if you buy a good brand like Mercury Magnetics, etc, are more consistently built and therefore will perform more consistent from transformer to transformer.

One specific question I asked a guy at a reputable and large amp building/modding company was..."if I change my Dagnalls out for some Drakes would it help the tone?" ( I had a jcm 800 with dagnalls at the time, and had gotten caught up in the hype that the Drakes are better) Anyway, his response was...."not necessarily, in fact, it may go the other way and sound worse." then he explained the inconsistencies I stated above, in more expert detail of course.

If you put 2 and 2 together, the inconsistencies in the older transformers would explain the adage that many of the older marshalls could sound pretty different even if they were the same model, so if you find a good one hang on to it

With marshalls of the 70's and 80's you really didn't get a choice of drakes vs. dagnalls unless you were also choosing wattage. The 100's for the most part had dagnalls while the 50 watters had drakes. I've got amps with both, and I've got a 30 year old JMP with dagnalls still going strong. If it broke down, depending on my budget at the time, I'd go with mercury magnetic replacement. If budget was a concern I'd just buy a stock replacement from any reputable dealer and not worry about it.

Anyway to the point,

I think you have to take each individual amp for its face value. Play it, and sum up it's value to you. If you like it, buy it and don't worry about the trannies. If you treat it good, and service it any of them will last decades. If they go bad, it sucks, but it happens with gear sometimes. You cannot really predict this occurrence.

I hope this helps you some

wow,thanks a lot,friend...
listen...what's circuitry differences were there among a '66 ,'67 ,a '68 100s watts? and about Dagnall Transformers types in the 100s W too?

Wilder Amplification · 11-08-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reginald

wow,thanks a lot,friend...
listen...what's circuitry differences were there among a '66 ,'67 ,a '68 100s watts? and about Dagnall Transformers types in the 100s W too?

Another impossible question to answer due to inconsistencies throughout those years. However, some used lower value filter caps, prior to '67 most of the filter caps were under the chassis on a seperate circuit board, they used "laydown" power transformers, etc etc.

More commonly you'll find that Drakes were used in the 50 watters while the 100 watters used Dagnalls...another factor adding to the apples & oranges comparison between the two. I realize that a few 100 watters may have been built with Drakes while a few 50 watters may have been built with Dagnalls...all depending on what was available at the time. But the more common config was 100 watters using Dagnalls and 50 watters using Drakes.

jaek · 11-08-2009, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaCookieMonster

All I can say is that my power transformer on a Jcm 2000 quit working.

Mine too and it was a Dagnall.

MajorNut1967 · 11-08-2009, 01:57 AM

Who cares!

Wilder Amplification · 11-08-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaCookieMonster

All I can say is that my power transformer on a Jcm 2000 quit working.

Since we're in the "Let's Talk Vintage" forum...since when did the JCM2000 become vintage?

MajorNut1967 · 11-08-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

Since we're in the "Let's Talk Vintage" forum...since when did the JCM2000 become vintage?

LOL

Reginald · 11-09-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

Another impossible question to answer due to inconsistencies throughout those years. However, some used lower value filter caps, prior to '67 most of the filter caps were under the chassis on a seperate circuit board, they used "laydown" power transformers, etc etc.

More commonly you'll find that Drakes were used in the 50 watters while the 100 watters used Dagnalls...another factor adding to the apples & oranges comparison between the two. I realize that a few 100 watters may have been built with Drakes while a few 50 watters may have been built with Dagnalls...all depending on what was available at the time. But the more common config was 100 watters using Dagnalls and 50 watters using Drakes.

better yellow Mustard caps or betterthe cornell-dubilier caps (half blue/white)?

Wilder Amplification · 11-09-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reginald

better yellow Mustard caps or betterthe cornell-dubilier caps (half blue/white)?

Get some of the CD caps, switch them out, and let your ears tell you. You're asking impossible to answer questions here dude.

thegaindeli · 11-09-2009, 09:33 PM

I like like the Dagnall's for their buttery flavor! The Drake's are great if you add a touch of sage before cooking...

MajorNut1967 · 11-09-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegaindeli

I like like the Dagnall's for their buttery flavor! The Drake's are great if you add a touch of sage before cooking...

Thats Bloody great!

Reginald · 11-10-2009, 08:54 AM

theese are that ones blue/yellow cornell-dubiliers.....and other ones are the yellow mustard caps,right?
which are the best between both?

but about Drake or Dagnal.....the Dagnalls are more buttery than Drake?
Or it depends only that Marshall fitted with Dagnall had EL34s,while that ones with Drake ,usually had KT66s?

thegaindeli · 11-10-2009, 09:06 AM

Tonight I'm serving-up a delicious asiago squash medley, with a lightly breaded Drake OT as the main course. This of course will be served on a bed of garden fresh baby spinach. Mmmm...

Wilder Amplification · 11-10-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reginald

theese are that ones blue/yellow cornell-dubiliers.....and other ones are the yellow mustard caps,right?
which are the best between both?

but about Drake or Dagnal.....the Dagnalls are more buttery than Drake?
Or it depends only that Marshall fitted with Dagnall had EL34s,while that ones with Drake ,usually had KT66s?

NO, the transformer brand had nothing to do with the valves that were fitted.

Typically, on the amps that Marshall WAS consistent with, the 100 watters typicaly used the Dagnall while the 50 watters used the Drakes.

janarn · 11-11-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder Amplification

NO, the transformer brand had nothing to do with the valves that were fitted.

Typically, on the amps that Marshall WAS consistent with, the 100 watters typicaly used the Dagnall while the 50 watters used the Drakes.

Early 100w output transformers were made for KT66 tubes.
100w amps used 2 x Drake on their dual output amps,
and the first production models also has Drake output transformers.
These early transformers were all Drakes made for KT66 tubes.
The change to Dagnall was almost at the same time as the change to EL34.
Since then (mid. '67) 100w have used Dagnall, and 50w have used Drake.

But if Drake couldn't deliver 50w transformators, Marshall just used Dagnall.
And if Dagnall couldn't deliver 100w, they used Drake.

So you cand find that on some amps (not many) during the 70's and 80's.

Reginald · 11-12-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janarn

Early 100w output transformers were made for KT66 tubes.
100w amps used 2 x Drake on their dual output amps,
and the first production models also has Drake output transformers.
These early transformers were all Drakes made for KT66 tubes.
The change to Dagnall was almost at the same time as the change to EL34.
Since then (mid. '67) 100w have used Dagnall, and 50w have used Drake.

But if Drake couldn't deliver 50w transformators, Marshall just used Dagnall.
And if Dagnall couldn't deliver 100w, they used Drake.

So you cand find that on some amps (not many) during the 70's and 80's.

Exactly..
When in '67 Marshall got the decision to use Drake for just the 50s and to use Dagnall for 100s, maybe this choise was made because Dagnall transformers were more economic,cheap than Drakes ones.....often more cheap,economic is also equal to more low,poor quality
so,for this reason I think be better to own a '69 50W than a '69 100W.
'6950W own Drake,while the '69 100 owns Dagnall Tr.

Unfortunately I havn't been able or better I havn't been fast to buy this great '69 50W Super Lead specimen,but someone has been faster than me.
it's a pity because its price was very low.it was a real bergain.
don't will happen ever more an oppurunity like that!
I've been a big stupid by don't buy it.
Oh my God...I'm very sad!
look

Bunnest · 11-13-2009, 01:39 PM

All three of my 1oo watt marshalls, two from the 60s and one from 71, have Dagnalls the OTs have the self lead with the little red tips, and one PT is a laydown and the other two are stand up PTs. I love Dagnalls...Nothing really cheap about them, unless you compare them to 60s partridge trannies!!! but then your into Hiwatt land!

rockinr0ll · 11-13-2009, 01:49 PM

I have been rolling with the Drake Trannys.

Reginald · 11-14-2009, 01:02 PM

About theese 'cornel-dubiliers' caps (theese half blue-half yellow in photos) in the pre-circuit...are them better than yellow Mustard caps or not?
and in which years Marshall mounted them?
this 50W is from '69 ser n° 3771A...I'm looking for a Marshall with the same caps like this

09-23-2009, 12:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
Reginald Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 80	DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? Often, the transformers blow out/break down in a Vintage plexi... Some early Marshall models had Drakes transformers, other ones had Dagnalls. If I find a '67 plexi with Drakes and another one with Dagnalls in both equal mind condition, which of then has been made with more resistant, durable, indestructible transformer? I.e. which of them has been made better, to hold on, to last more in time? Who has been made with the best quality materials and the best technical construction? Which between them was more strong, well-built, more durable, more resistant in time? Supposing to let's make a performance... supposing we can return back in time at '67 in order to buy whether some Marshall with Drakes or Marshall with Dagnalls both in perfect new stock conditions and perfect construction and supposing we can play them until the year 2090 or more or until one of them will break down/transformers break down. Which transformer will to resist more in time, which will survive? Which will to be the first for break down? Drakes or Dagnalls types? Which could to be the winner? Which could to be the best transformer?

09-23-2009, 12:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
jcmjmp Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,341	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? You should go on the metroamp forum to ask these questions. There's a lot of vintage Marshall experts there.

09-29-2009, 11:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
DaCookieMonster Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Santa Cruz, Ca Posts: 73	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? All I can say is that my power transformer on a Jcm 2000 quit working. __________________ Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Goldtop. "Tess" Individual push-pull coil taps. Fender Stratocaster "Sadie" This guitar is built of strat parts I bought on ebay. All new, and all American though. Gibson SG Faded red. Angus Young signature pickup(s) Amp: Marshall JCM2000 (Broken as of August 13, 2009)(Fixed as of September 29, 2009) Fender 4*12 Cabinet R.I.P. Les Paul

10-01-2009, 10:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
ironlung40 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Maryville, TN Posts: 309	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? that's an impossible question to answer especially with these older transformers. Every experienced person I've spoken to on this subject has stated that these type of electronic components of yesteryear were really inconsistent. You have to think of the methods they used to wind them, etc. today the newer transformers, if you buy a good brand like Mercury Magnetics, etc, are more consistently built and therefore will perform more consistent from transformer to transformer. One specific question I asked a guy at a reputable and large amp building/modding company was..."if I change my Dagnalls out for some Drakes would it help the tone?" ( I had a jcm 800 with dagnalls at the time, and had gotten caught up in the hype that the Drakes are better) Anyway, his response was...."not necessarily, in fact, it may go the other way and sound worse." then he explained the inconsistencies I stated above, in more expert detail of course. If you put 2 and 2 together, the inconsistencies in the older transformers would explain the adage that many of the older marshalls could sound pretty different even if they were the same model, so if you find a good one hang on to it With marshalls of the 70's and 80's you really didn't get a choice of drakes vs. dagnalls unless you were also choosing wattage. The 100's for the most part had dagnalls while the 50 watters had drakes. I've got amps with both, and I've got a 30 year old JMP with dagnalls still going strong. If it broke down, depending on my budget at the time, I'd go with mercury magnetic replacement. If budget was a concern I'd just buy a stock replacement from any reputable dealer and not worry about it. Anyway to the point, I think you have to take each individual amp for its face value. Play it, and sum up it's value to you. If you like it, buy it and don't worry about the trannies. If you treat it good, and service it any of them will last decades. If they go bad, it sucks, but it happens with gear sometimes. You cannot really predict this occurrence. I hope this helps you some

11-08-2009, 01:57 AM	#9 (permalink)
MajorNut1967 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Pacific Posts: 710	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? Who cares! __________________ MJN1967 aka BA (Bad Attitude) 1968 model 1987 50watt. A Baby Major (Half-Power) I built from the ground up. JTM 45 Clone combo Ground up build. JCM 800 Clone Ground up build. Custom Built Warmoth Strat 75' Fender Tele-Deluxe '70 style strat custom build w/Custom Shop 69's PU's

11-09-2009, 09:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
thegaindeli Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 83	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? I like like the Dagnall's for their buttery flavor! The Drake's are great if you add a touch of sage before cooking... __________________ Calling and illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"!

11-10-2009, 09:06 AM	#17 (permalink)
thegaindeli Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 83	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? Tonight I'm serving-up a delicious asiago squash medley, with a lightly breaded Drake OT as the main course. This of course will be served on a bed of garden fresh baby spinach. Mmmm... __________________ Calling and illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"!

11-13-2009, 01:39 PM	#21 (permalink)
Bunnest Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 12	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? All three of my 1oo watt marshalls, two from the 60s and one from 71, have Dagnalls the OTs have the self lead with the little red tips, and one PT is a laydown and the other two are stand up PTs. I love Dagnalls...Nothing really cheap about them, unless you compare them to 60s partridge trannies!!! but then your into Hiwatt land!

11-13-2009, 01:49 PM	#22 (permalink)
rockinr0ll Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? I have been rolling with the Drake Trannys.

11-14-2009, 01:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
Reginald Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 80	Re: DRAKEs Vs DAGNALLs who's the winner? About theese 'cornel-dubiliers' caps (theese half blue-half yellow in photos) in the pre-circuit...are them better than yellow Mustard caps or not? and in which years Marshall mounted them? this 50W is from '69 ser n° 3771A...I'm looking for a Marshall with the same caps like this

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