Bands where one player makes or breaks the band - Page 3

Grunch · 06-05-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwebb1970

KISS w/o Gene or Paul would = no KISS. WHen you think about it, it has been Gene/Paul & rotating side men ever since Peter Criss first bailed after UNMASKED. And both Criss & Frehley themselves have been part of said rotation over the years.

Then again, I would not put it past Gene to come up with a pseudo-Stanley to fill in on the road should Paul finally decide to hang up the greasepaint & platform boots. Nothing..I mean NOTHING..will ever stand in between Gene Simmons & a buck, not even Paul Stanely.

Paul's voice is unique though. He's got that gay NY jew dialect working for him. He's not much of a guitar player, but he is a legitimate frontman and singer. Gene might one day try to replace him and pull it off, but it would NEVER work.

gdh1532 · 06-05-2012, 02:11 PM

He's dead now, but .....Tiny Tim would've had a hard time doing his act if he wasn't thee

Redders · 06-05-2012, 02:48 PM

Queen without Freddie...

Blisster · 06-05-2012, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiseblood

Thought a cool discussion could be on bands where one key player leaving or joining (or even changing spots in the lineup completely change the band better or worse?

COC - Pepper Keenan to me night and day comparison, Deliverance/Wiseblood & In The Arms of God are all very original sounding and killer albums vs Blind and Animosity for example...

Gotta disagree with ya Wisey....'Animosity' was a genre bending/defining album, as was 'Technocracy'(though not quite as good). Mike, Reed and Woody did something truly unique back in the day.

Wiseblood · 06-05-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blisster

Gotta disagree with ya Wisey....'Animosity' was a genre bending/defining album, as was 'Technocracy'(though not quite as good). Mike, Reed and Woody did something truly unique back in the day.

Interesting take Blisster...That I can see, good call. When comparing the early COC vs the later that's where I gotta say later COC for sure.

What do you think of the new COC without Pepper (since he's tied up with Down and being a Dad)..., have you had a chance to hear any of the new material?

DeLorean · 06-05-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtySteve

John Bush made Anthrax for me, I really don't care for Joey.

I'm listening to "sound of white noise" right now.

Hell yeah, Amen to that!

Also: Sound of White Noise is killer!

DeLorean · 06-05-2012, 09:38 PM

Bon Jovi without Richie Sambora, both vocally and guitar(ally).

B.Gloob · 06-05-2012, 10:03 PM

RUSH without Geddy

B.Gloob · 06-05-2012, 10:04 PM

Pantera without Dimebag

Wiseblood · 06-06-2012, 04:44 AM

RIP - Dime.

Panteta needed all 4 ingredients, they were a well oiled machine.

Ghostman · 06-06-2012, 07:00 AM

Barbara Streisand without Barbara.

...actually that kinda works.

Strateuphoria · 06-13-2012, 06:51 PM

RHCP without Flee

Quasar-Kid · 06-13-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diesel king

When Cliff Burton died, metallica lost all their balls and became the worst band on the planet.

Priest without Halford, why the **** would anyone think this is a good idea?!? Seriously.

Van Halen without DLR = WRONG

True
True
and
True

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiseblood

Cliff Burton - He was the life and death of Metallica, it wasn't until they moved out to San Fran so Cliff would join the band that they become a legit band that would then spark the birth of Thrash. It was also when Cliff died that that Metallica in a sense died. Justice was a killer album it downfall is it's lack of bass, most of those riffs were written with Cliff, had he been around man the follow up to Puppets would have (potentially) been unfathomable!

I dig Newsted and thought he was an awesome fit, but I mean the way they just kept him as a hired-gun vs a contributing member was just a recipe for disaster in its self so nothing against Newsted, don't like Truijo although he can play, no doubt but not digging his style and the way he fits Metallica (even tho they have gone to shit).

Disagree with the last statement bro..I myself think Death Magnetic is one of their BEST albums! The early thrash shit was cool..okay..but primitive..and immature sounding...This latest album encompasses ALL of their previous musical notion, yet adds a degree of maturity to the music. Hetfield's vocals for instance are the BEST they have ever been...and as expressive imo as Ozzy. There are some KILLER riffs on that album, and the arrangements are superb!

Goosey · 06-14-2012, 10:34 AM

The ones that made the band great:
Alter Bridge without Myles Kennedy would be a disaster (basically Creed).
Guns N Roses - Izzy
Aerosmith - Steven Tyler
The Darkness - Justin Hawkins
Dokken - George Lynch
Thin Lizzy - Scott Gorham
Motley Crue - Mick Mars
Queen - All of them
Skid Row - Sebastian Bach

The ones that broke the band:
Guns N Roses - Gilby Clarke
Creed - Scott Stapp
Poison - Brett Michaels (Although he isn't too bad)

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goosey

The ones that made the band great:
Alter Bridge without Myles Kennedy would be a disaster (basically Creed).
Guns N Roses - Izzy
Aerosmith - Steven Tyler
The Darkness - Justin Hawkins
Dokken - George Lynch
Thin Lizzy - Scott Gorham
Motley Crue - Mick Mars
Queen - All of them
Skid Row - Sebastian Bach

The ones that broke the band:
Guns N Roses - Gilby Clarke
Creed - Scott Stapp
Poison - Brett Michaels (Although he isn't too bad)

You forgot Rush..in which would be ALL OF THEM!

V-man · 06-14-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiseblood

Cliff Burton - He was the life and death of Metallica, it wasn't until they moved out to San Fran so Cliff would join the band that they become a legit band that would then spark the birth of Thrash. It was also when Cliff died that that Metallica in a sense died. Justice was a killer album it downfall is it's lack of bass, most of those riffs were written with Cliff, had he been around man the follow up to Puppets would have (potentially) been unfathomable!

I dig Newsted and thought he was an awesome fit, but I mean the way they just kept him as a hired-gun vs a contributing member was just a recipe for disaster in its self so nothing against Newsted, don't like Truijo although he can play, no doubt but not digging his style and the way he fits Metallica (even tho they have gone to shit).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Disagree with the last statement bro..I myself think Death Magnetic is one of their BEST albums! The early thrash shit was cool..okay..but primitive..and immature sounding...This latest album encompasses ALL of their previous musical notion, yet adds a degree of maturity to the music. Hetfield's vocals for instance are the BEST they have ever been...and as expressive imo as Ozzy. There are some KILLER riffs on that album, and the arrangements are superb!

It is hard to get on board with an apples/apples comparison between DM and anything that was released in the 1980s. For starters, the "early thrash shit" (ETS) was written by kids. DM was written by middle-aged guys. The "ETS" was written by guys who played for roof, recognition and respect, whereas DM was written by guys who play for remembrance, relevance, and revenue. It's not exactly a full picture to take a 1984 recording by gigging musicians with a recently-scrounged old marshall and compare it to a 2008 release by veteran stadium performers with millions at their disposal and 20+ years technology. Yeah, one is going to sound more "mature".

The thing is that if DM was released in August 1991, It would have been the logical progression and maturity of Metallica, and an amazing release to follow AJFA. Instead we got an "experimental" album, followed by a slew of tasteless pop trash that lack significance or staying power. The reality of the situation is that it took literally 20 years to release an album that logically and organically followed AJFA, and after years worth of hype, touts and empty promises that "this next one really captures the old Metallica" what would have been an amazing work in '91 is little (if anything) more than a stale, anticlimactic apology for 20 years of misdirection.

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-man

It is hard to get on board with an apples/apples comparison between DM and anything that was released in the 1980s. For starters, the "early thrash shit" (ETS) was written by kids. DM was written by middle-aged guys. The "ETS" was written by guys who played for roof, recognition and respect, whereas DM was written by guys who play for remembrance, relevance, and revenue. It's not exactly a full picture to take a 1984 recording by gigging musicians with a recently-scrounged old marshall and compare it to a 2008 release by veteran stadium performers with millions at their disposal and 20+ years technology. Yeah, one is going to sound more "mature".

The thing is that if DM was released in August 1991, It would have been the logical progression and maturity of Metallica, and an amazing release to follow AJFA. Instead we got an "experimental" album, followed by a slew of tasteless pop trash that lack significance or staying power. The reality of the situation is that it took literally 20 years to release an album that logically and organically followed AJFA, and after years worth of hype, touts and empty promises that "this next one really captures the old Metallica" what would have been an amazing work in '91 is little (if anything) more than a stale, anticlimactic apology for 20 years of misdirection.

Okay, so you like it then eh?

I will regurgitate what I said earlier...Not to much of a fan of their earlier stuff..and I probably am in quite a large minority here considering their immense popularity, (Metallica) especially amongst the metal crowd, however, Death Magnetic is indeed a world class metal album, regardless of its release date, or its origins...and that to me is as 'nothing else matters'... (

)

V-man · 06-14-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Okay, so you like it then eh?

I will regurgitate what I said earlier...Not to much of a fan of their earlier stuff..and I probably am in quite a large minority here considering their immense popularity, (Metallica) especially amongst the metal crowd, however, Death Magnetic is indeed a world class metal album, regardless of its release date, or its origins...and that to me is as 'nothing else matters'... (

)

Based on the reasons I cited above, I don't know that the album can ever be judged within context. You have a lot of tech and resources for production (far more than 90% of any metal albums ever released). You have veteran musicians playing it. You have the music itself.

Against that backdrop, you have the relevant music the band made before ('82-'88), the irrelevant music the band made before ('91-'07), you have the music and technical/artistic accomplishments their peers and their progeny have made in the past 20 years to weigh against the release, and you have "outside issues" surround the philosophy and politics of the band.

So what is the touchstone, the litmus?

- Is it that the music on its own merits is appropriate and satisfactory for the genre?

- Is it that the music when compared to all other releases over the past 25 years is worthy of mention (aside from who made it)

- Is it that after all the releases Metallica has produced over the past 30 years, this is a capstone album that reconciles the 80s with the 90s/00s?

There are many ways to measure the success of the release, but I would argue the measuring tape has been kinked beyond usefulness given the conditions. I don't think the music can be judged on its merits based on all the fans have gone through, or how long it took for them to get (back) to this point. One can like it or loathe it, but it is so out of place now that it doesn't make sense. The band has been a shit pop band doing Metallica covers for twice as long as they were Metallica, and to bring the entertaining hijack back to the OP, I believe it comes from the irreperable loss of key members.

James, Dave, and Cliff... They had to have 3 for the band to remain true to Metallica. That firing Dave from the band wasn't comitting musical sepuku comes from 3 factors... 1. Fortunately for the band, James happened to have potential to end up becoming talented guitarist and songwriter, 2. Cliff's musical influence (songwriting and performance) set them apart from other metal bands, and 3. They built their musical foundation on Dave's material (and continued to do so) to achieve notoriety.

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-man

Based on the reasons I cited above, I don't know that the album can ever be judged within context.

Boy V-man you sure are one eloquent writer! However,

and to return to the premise of this thread; it appears Burton's demise and departure from a sales standpoint was utterly irrelevant. EVERY album that was released went platinum MULTIPLE times... In fact, here we go, their most successful album was the black album in which went platinum in the U.S. alone FIFTEEN times! So I do not know how you DO NOT judge DM in context!

(which btw has already gone platinum like 5 times)

Any personal feelings about what you like or diliske is nothing but conjecture, like most debates in the realm of artisic review...

But, hard numbers are just that: hard and quantitative...something that can be judged with zero ambiguity...

Bubba po · 06-14-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papus

Oh, and the Jimi Hendrix Experience - I mean, what have they done since 1968?

Well they influenced me a lot after Jimi died.

V-man · 06-14-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Boy V-man you sure are one eloquent writer! However,

and to return to the premise of this thread; it appears Burton's demise and departure from a sales standpoint was utterly irrelevant. EVERY album that was released went platinum MULTIPLE times... In fact, here we go, their most successful album was the black album in which went platinum in the U.S. alone FIFTEEN times! So I do not know how you DO NOT judge DM in context!

(which btw has already gone platinum like 5 times)

Any personal feelings about what you like or diliske is nothing but conjecture, like most debates in the realm of artisic review...

But, hard numbers are just that: hard and quantitative...something that can be judged with zero ambiguity...

I think the problem with your analysis is the measurement of success in terms of popularity and sales.

Yes, it is a ridiculous statement at first blush, but consider the issue. They already were a platinum-selling headlining band before the Black Album.When you are already a rich, successful, popular band, more richness and popularity is not necessarily a sign of improvement, let alone maintaining its integrity. Consider the hypothetical case of some former child actress. She has X fans and Y dollars for her "sitcom" and an appearance or two in some tween movies. At a career crossroads, she abandons the treacherous uphill path of kid actor to successful adult actor, and instead does a "snooki" bit on a reality series, followed by 4 years of porn. Her antics became viral and her "media" netted her 8 times the revenue as her childhood career. Would you measure that as a successful improvement/maintainment of her career or irrelevant change?

It certainly may be more advantageous to her personally (or not) and it may draw a larger following, but the new crowd has different reasons and motives for support. The same is the case of Metallica. It may have been advantageous from a personal perspective to move in that direction, but the stable/stenghthening sales standpoint does nothing to negate Burton's death or their departed legacy. What if the numbers remained identical, only they made the crossover into hip hop or smooth Jazz? Would that be irrelevant?

You Tube

Is moving from Fight Fire With Fire and Orion to This

irrelevant?

You Tube

or this

?

The bottom line is that for "SOME reason" Metallica changed the format from Thash metal to Ass pop. Some hypothecize they got tired of it and wanted a change. I hypothecize they realized the could no longer hack it and now was the time to get out/change course while they were still relevant. when one considers that 1. they seem to glorify/repromote all the old stuff with their XXX celebration, the big 4 tour, and all past shows 2. They spent 10+ years trying to entice listeners with "this is a lot like the Old Metallica" hype, and 3. the embarrassing breakdowns in Some Kind of Monster all suggest my contention has more far ammunition than those advocating they just happened to be sick of metal for 20 years (yet still covered it at every show and made bad claims with each release how it relates to the old stuff).

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-man

I think the problem with your analysis is the measurement of success in terms of popularity and sales.

Yes, it is a ridiculous statement at first blush, but consider the issue. They already were a platinum-selling headlining band before the Black Album.When you are already a rich, successful, popular band, more richness and popularity is not necessarily a sign of improvement, let alone maintaining its integrity. Consider the hypothetical case of some former child actress. She has X fans and Y dollars for her "sitcom" and an appearance or two in some tween movies. At a career crossroads, she abandons the treacherous uphill path of kid actor to successful adult actor, and instead does a "snooki" bit on a reality series, followed by 4 years of porn. Her antics became viral and her "media" netted her 8 times the revenue as her childhood career. Would you measure that as a successful improvement/maintainment of her career or irrelevant change?

It certainly may be more advantageous to her personally (or not) and it may draw a larger following, but the new crowd has different reasons and motives for support. The same is the case of Metallica. It may have been advantageous from a personal perspective to move in that direction, but the stable/stenghthening sales standpoint does nothing to negate Burton's death or their departed legacy. What if the numbers remained identical, only they made the crossover into hip hop or smooth Jazz? Would that be irrelevant?

The bottom line is that for "SOME reason" Metallica changed the format from Thash metal to Ass pop. Some hypothecize they got tired of it and wanted a change. I hypothecize they realized the could no longer hack it and now was the time to get out/change course while they were still relevant. when one considers that 1. they seem to glorify/repromote all the old stuff with their XXX celebration, the big 4 tour, and all past shows 2. They spent 10+ years trying to entice listeners with "this is a lot like the Old Metallica" hype, and 3. the embarrassing breakdowns in Some Kind of Monster all suggest my contention has more far ammunition than those advocating they just happened to be sick of metal for 20 years (yet still covered it at every show and made bad claims with each release how it relates to the old stuff).

Again well written V-man, but merely conjecture and opinion...Incidentally, I believe there there is no problem with my analysis as to what equates to success with respect to the OP's question when viewed in the appropriate context. Whether you like or dislike new or old Metallica is relevant only to yourself. Personally, I like the newer Metallica, and yes even St. Anger at least, like their earlier material, was unique. However, I am straying from the OP's premise...

From an opinion standpoint as to whether or not you like Metallica without Burton is truly an opinion; something that simply cannot be quantified or judged without opinion itself... (I think I already said this; did I not?)

The 'fact' that they are one of the most successful recording and touring acts of all time IS (as to be revealed through sheer sales) and holds significant relevance as to their impact on our culture, and the music industry in general. Big numbers as in empirical data, means BIG fan base...therefore corroborating the fact that Burton's death had very little impact on the existence of METALLICA...

Now if Neal Pert had died 30 years ago..well....hmmmmm

Quasar-Kid · 06-14-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Disagree with the last statement bro..I myself think Death Magnetic is one of their BEST albums! The early thrash shit was cool..okay..but primitive..and immature sounding...This latest album encompasses ALL of their previous musical notion, yet adds a degree of maturity to the music. Hetfield's vocals for instance are the BEST they have ever been...and as expressive imo as Ozzy. There are some KILLER riffs on that album, and the arrangements are superb!

Whoa..!!!

Didn't James (The Douche') Hetfield sing on "Kill 'em All and Ride the Lightning"
Because if he did then I would have to argue that's his best stuff

In fact for me: Those two albums are excellent
and the more James (The Douche') Hetfield sylizes his vocals the worse and worse the band sounds - I wish the guy who sang those first two records still sang for Metallica

just my two cents

V-man · 06-14-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

The 'fact' that they are one of the most successful recording and touring acts of all time IS (as to be revealed through sheer sales) and holds significant relevance as to their impact on our culture, and the music industry in general. Big numbers as in empirical data, means BIG fan base...therefore corroborating the fact that Burton's death had very little impact on the existence of METALLICA...

This is the crux of the argument, one that I feel that you are missing.

After the Beatles broke up, EACH ONE of them had successful careers, albeit in seperately named projects. You would likely argue that such examples do not apply because "Metallica" held together with James and Lars throughout. I disagree entirely. I concede it is true that both James and Lars had a monetarily successful career after Cliff died and they did so under the organized name, "Metallica". However, I disagree entirely that what followed was in fact, Metallica. The band was dead with's Cliff's passing, AJFA was the Funeral and "To Live Is To Die" was the eulogy. The band changed forevermore, and either they could no longer succeed doing what the band did, or at least the remaining members lost the confidence in that belief. Thus, the band was broken, and what reformed was not the same at all. It has long since been my contention that Metallica's biggest sin was not all the terrible music made past 1988... it was that they stubbornly clung to the name "Metallica" (clearly for reasons of money and popularity) after long-since abandoning it.

If Dave Grohl & company maintained a deathlike grip to the name and successfully crossed over to hip hop in 1995, we would not be calling it "Nirvana", despite the band's insistence it was.

Holme · 06-14-2012, 03:44 PM

Nickleback-Chad Kroeger.
There'd be no one to throw pickles at!

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasar-Kid

Whoa..!!!

Didn't James (The Douche') Hetfield sing on "Kill 'em All and Ride the Lightning"
Because if he did then I would have to argue that's his best stuff

In fact for me: Those two albums are excellent
and the more James (The Douche') Hetfield sylizes his vocals the worse and worse the band sounds - I wish the guy who sang those first two records still sang for Metallica

just my two cents

Ha! You call that singing? Sounds more like vocal defecation to me...

Metallica's music, and yes V-man it STILL IS METALLICA..(imo of course

) and according to the courts of our land..(bottom line bro)...but Hetfield (the douchbag you say that could buy your net worth and own your whole town..and probably play AND compose circles around you (and me for that matter) has far more depth then that 'scratch track' NO DYNAMICS stuff of the early 80s...

V-man · 06-14-2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Ha! You call that singing? Sounds more like vocal defecation to me...

Metallica's music, and yes V-man it STILL IS METALLICA..(imo of course

) and according to the courts of our land..(bottom line bro)...but Hetfield (the douchbag you say that could buy your net worth and own your whole town..and probably play circles around you (and me for that matter) has far more depth then that 'scratch track' NO DYNAMICS stuff of the early 80s...

Sure... It only took stealing a great songwriter's material (for 2+ albums), outright plaigarism on a third, suing 300,000+ fans, and churning out 2 decades worth of sonic ass to get there.

But he is a better guitar player than me... I certainly give him that!

Adrian R · 06-14-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-man

Sure... It only took stealing a great songwriter's material (for 2+ albums), outright plaigarism on a third, suing 300,000+ fans, and churning out 2 decades worth of sonic ass to get there.

But he is a better guitar player than me... I certainly give him that!

Yea, but at least he didn't piss in a %$nt!

V-man · 06-14-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian R

Yea, but at least he didn't piss in a %$nt!

Now who's throwing out conjecture?

Actually, I was reading an account in Dave Mustaine's biography where he purports to have witnessed a "bonding incident" where Lars regurgitated a chewed mouthful of sandwich into James' open maw, who then finished masticating and swallowing. I respect a guy who pees in a **** any day over a guy who takes an Ulrich sandwich load down his gullet.

06-05-2012, 02:11 PM	#62 (permalink)
gdh1532 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: inside this computer Posts: 2,598	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band He's dead now, but .....Tiny Tim would've had a hard time doing his act if he wasn't thee

06-05-2012, 02:48 PM	#63 (permalink)
Redders Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Cheshire, UK Posts: 395	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band Queen without Freddie... __________________

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06-05-2012, 10:03 PM	#68 (permalink)
B.Gloob Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: on top of your sister Posts: 522	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band RUSH without Geddy MacMan and bvoris like this.

06-05-2012, 10:04 PM	#69 (permalink)
B.Gloob Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: on top of your sister Posts: 522	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band Pantera without Dimebag MacMan, gdh1532 and bvoris like this.

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06-06-2012, 04:44 AM	#70 (permalink)
Wiseblood Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Pit Posts: 1,505	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band RIP - Dime. Panteta needed all 4 ingredients, they were a well oiled machine. DirtySteve and diesel king like this. __________________ Wiseblood Jackson King V (EMG 81/85) > Randall RG100ES > Marshall 1960BV

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06-14-2012, 10:34 AM	#75 (permalink)
Goosey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Posts: 736	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band The ones that made the band great: Alter Bridge without Myles Kennedy would be a disaster (basically Creed). Guns N Roses - Izzy Aerosmith - Steven Tyler The Darkness - Justin Hawkins Dokken - George Lynch Thin Lizzy - Scott Gorham Motley Crue - Mick Mars Queen - All of them Skid Row - Sebastian Bach The ones that broke the band: Guns N Roses - Gilby Clarke Creed - Scott Stapp Poison - Brett Michaels (Although he isn't too bad) MacMan likes this. __________________ Marshall TSL100 Marshall 1960BX Cab (25W Greenbacks) Strauss SV-CL30 ------------------------ Kramer Pacer Classic 2012 Fender American Standard Strat Epiphone Appetite Les Paul Standard Washburn WR-150 Cort X6 (far from stock) Cort MR710F Acoustic

06-14-2012, 03:44 PM	#86 (permalink)
Holme Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: England Posts: 4,527	Re: Bands where one player makes or breaks the band Nickleback-Chad Kroeger. There'd be no one to throw pickles at! jwebb1970 and gdh1532 like this.

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