1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question

option1080 · 10-03-2009, 03:03 AM

I have looked on this forum and on other marshall/cab forums and have not found a 100% for sure answer on this question, so i apologize if i am asking a question that has already been answered in another thread..

My cab is a 2004 Marshall 1960ax 4x12... I know that the greenbacks are 25watts each which makes the cab 100w watts at 16ohms.. I have seen a few people say that a 100w amp head should not be used with that cab setup because its to much wattage for the speakers.. However i have also noticed that a few people have 100w Heads with their 1960ax (or other 100watt 4x12's)

I happen to be in the market for a new amp head because i am not 100% happy with my current amp.. So I am trying to figure out if i should be narrowing my search down to amps in the 50-60watt range, or if a 100w amp is fine unless you are REALLY cranking the volume up high.. Obviously i dont want to damage or blow out my speakers, so im just trying to play it safe! I appreciate any info on this, since i am not very electronically savi! Thanks a lot!

rockinr0ll · 10-03-2009, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by option1080

I happen to be in the market for a new amp head because i am not 100% happy with my current amp.. So I am trying to figure out if i should be narrowing my search down to amps in the 50-60watt range, or if a 100w amp is fine unless you are REALLY cranking the volume up high.. Obviously i dont want to damage or blow out my speakers, so im just trying to play it safe! I appreciate any info on this, since i am not very electronically savi! Thanks a lot!

Basically what you said in your last paragraph sums it up.

option1080 · 10-03-2009, 04:33 AM

So if I were to buy a 100w Amp, and run it through my 1960ax, the speakers and the amp would all be fine, as long as its not cranked most of the way up?

My rhythm guitarist and I both have 100w amps currently and never turn them up past 3 or 4... For practice or gigging...

Also, another way to fix the 100w cab problem would be to get a 2nd 1960ax and run them stereo, correct? Im assuming that would send an equal amount of power to each cab..? But i'm less than brilliant when it comes to electronics lol. Not that i'm considering this as an option at the moment, but just so i know for future reference...

Sorry for the annoying questions, I just dont want to buy an amp that shouldn't be played through the 1960ax, cause I love that cab! Also to insure I am making a wise investment as far as the money is concerned...

Thanks again for your help!

rockinr0ll · 10-03-2009, 04:55 AM

Well, if you really are concerned about getting a 100 watt head you could just get a 50 watt. It really shouldn't be a problem though. The chances of you blowing a greenback should be pretty slim.

george76 · 10-03-2009, 06:13 AM

i would run a 50 watt head into that cab to be safe.

if you really want to use a 100 watt head you could just get another cab.

option1080 · 10-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Thanks for the reply's guys..
Heres another solution question;
If I were to buy 2 seperate speakers, (for argument sake Celestion V30's) and but them in the Cab with the greenbacks, as long as they are 16 ohms same as the greenbacks, that would allow for a more wattage head safely correct?
The Vintage 30's are 60w i believe

Heres a "diagram" i made to show what i mean...

solarburnDSL50 · 10-03-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by option1080

Thanks for the reply's guys..
Heres another solution question;
If I were to buy 2 seperate speakers, (for argument sake Celestion V30's) and but them in the Cab with the greenbacks, as long as they are 16 ohms same as the greenbacks, that would allow for a more wattage head safely correct?
The Vintage 30's are 60w i believe

Heres a "diagram" i made to show what i mean...

This is from Avatar's website for an example of mixing and then adding correctly the power handling:

When you use a 30 watt speaker with a 60 watt speaker of same ohm and SPL sensitivity, why doesn't the power rating add up to 90 watts? Because half of the signal is going to be evenly distributed amoung the two speakers, you don't want to put any more power than twice the lowest capacity wattage into the pair....otherwise you could damage the 30 watt speaker. The two wattages..30 and 60 don't sum to 90. A 30 watt speaker mixed with a 60 watt speaker makes a 60 watt capacity cab (twice the lowest one).

So in your example you still have a 100 watt cab or it should be treated as that.

solarburnDSL50 · 10-03-2009, 03:27 PM

Also from Avatar:

With tube guitar amps, it's a little different. Overdriving the power tubes can give a desirable distortion tone which sounds great but most guys will use smaller amps than what the speakers are rated for. For example, having a 15 or 18 watt power tube guitar amp and turning up most of the way produces great tone but you still need the speakers to have a combined total speaker rating that is higher than the amps rating because the amp can still overheat the speakers.

option1080 · 10-03-2009, 03:30 PM

Ah ok, thank you Solarburn. That does make sense... I finally noticed that people that use 100w heads with 100w cabs use "power brakes" (same as an attenuator??) anyone know exactly what these are? and what they do?

Naturally I am going to research this right now as well, to see if I can find the answers that way! But thanks again for the help everyone!

jupiter89 · 10-11-2009, 12:37 AM

Hey option1080 I have the same exact concern. I am planning to buy the 1960AX cab, and I have a 100watt 1959HW plexi. I got concerned when reading Guitar Center's comment on the 1960AX that states "If used as a half stack with a 100W head, a power brake is recommended." After reading that I sent this e-mail to Celestion : "I am considering purchasing a Marshall 1960AX speaker cabinet
which contains four G12M 12" Celestion Greenbacks. The dealer
Guitar Center mentions on their site that if a "half stack" (one
cabinet) is used with a 100W head as I intend to do, that a
"power break" is recommended. I assume this is to cut down the power from the amp going to the cabinet to keep the speakers
from being blown. Is this really necessary ? If so, is it just only an issue when the amp if fully cranked ? " Here's the response I got back from "Doctor Decibel" at Celstion: "It would only need a power break if you really crank it especially with
high gain, for 'normal' use I don't think it would really be required
although it is very easy to find yourself turning up just a little bit
more .....

Regards
The Doc"

I will play with no worries through my 50 watt JCM800 or DSL50, but I will chance it with the 100watt head.

option1080 · 10-11-2009, 01:40 AM

Thanks for that info Jupiter89! Yeah I saw that same message, however it was on Musiciansfriend...
I actually never even thought about the fact that the greenbacks were only 25watts until I was playing a show once and I guess the gain knob got knocked higher and every time i'd stop playing anything on the guitar (even turning the volume to 0) id get a real loud feedback like noise.. Sadly it took my dumb self a while to see the gain knob being at about 8.5 instead of 5.5-6 (no permanent damage to the speakers thankfully).... I never really turn the master up past 3 even, so I wondered afterwards "what pulls more wattage?" the overall Gain, or the overall Volume?.. Or are they about equal and both use a lot of power?... Anyway im trying to decide if I want to buy a power brake, or swap cabs totally.. Im looking to buy another hopefully soon anyway!
Anyway, if you find anything else out let me know! Thanks a lot!

solarburnDSL50 · 10-11-2009, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by option1080

Thanks for that info Jupiter89! Yeah I saw that same message, however it was on Musiciansfriend...
I actually never even thought about the fact that the greenbacks were only 25watts until I was playing a show once and I guess the gain knob got knocked higher and every time i'd stop playing anything on the guitar (even turning the volume to 0) id get a real loud feedback like noise.. Sadly it took my dumb self a while to see the gain knob being at about 8.5 instead of 5.5-6 (no permanent damage to the speakers thankfully).... I never really turn the master up past 3 even, so I wondered afterwards "what pulls more wattage?" the overall Gain, or the overall Volume?.. Or are they about equal and both use a lot of power?... Anyway im trying to decide if I want to buy a power brake, or swap cabs totally.. Im looking to buy another hopefully soon anyway!
Anyway, if you find anything else out let me know! Thanks a lot!

The volume will blow them. The volume knob is what lights that power section(power tubes)up.

jupiter89 · 10-11-2009, 06:13 PM

Option1080: Let me just say that you can feel confident with any information you get from solarburnDSL50 or MartyStrat54 - these are, helpful, considerate stand-up guys that are knowledgeable pros who know their stuff ! They are of great help to any of us on the learning curve ! From what solarburnDSL50 just said, I'll feel fine when I get to use my 100w plexi with the 1960AX cab (that I eventually will buy), WITHOUT a Powerbrake -I will just play only to a max. of 7 or 8. My DSL50 or JCM800 2204 (are my 50 watters), so they are no problem turned up, but even with those guys, its hard going past 8 !!! Anyway with that said, the only thing hotter than EL34 powers tubes fully cranked are the smokin' buns on a young hottie strokin' a Marshall - does it get any better? Hmmm - time to "plug in"

solarburnDSL50 · 10-11-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiter89

Option1080: Let me just say that you can feel confident with any information you get from solarburnDSL50 or MartyStrat54 - these are, helpful, considerate stand-up guys that are knowledgeable pros who know their stuff ! They are of great help to any of us on the learning curve ! From what solarburnDSL50 just said, I'll feel fine when I get to use my 100w plexi with the 1960AX cab (that I eventually will buy), WITHOUT a Powerbrake -I will just play only to a max. of 7 or 8. My DSL50 or JCM800 2204 (are my 50 watters), so they are no problem turned up, but even with those guys, its hard going past 8 !!! Anyway with that said, the only thing hotter than EL34 powers tubes fully cranked are the smokin' buns on a young hottie strokin' a Marshall - does it get any better? Hmmm - time to "plug in"

Be careful with those 100 watters going into 100 watt cabs.

Its a fine line to draw. I prefer 50 watters into those 100 watt GB cabs...

Sir Don · 10-11-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50

Be careful with those 100 watters going into 100 watt cabs.

Its a fine line to draw. I prefer 50 watters into those 100 watt GB cabs...

I agree with this, it's an expesive mistake if you happen to blow some speakers.

jupiter89 · 10-11-2009, 11:50 PM

Yeah' I will definitely go at it with caution when using the 100 watt head. Would you say volume of 7 or below would be safe ? I really like the 25w Greenbacks in that 1960AX cab. I would not mind having a higher wattage 2nd cab just for use for that plexi head and use the 1960AX only with my DSL50 or JCM800 2204, but too much $, too little space to allow for that...

solarburnDSL50 · 10-12-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jupiter89

Yeah' I will definitely go at it with caution when using the 100 watt head. Would you say volume of 7 or below would be safe ? I really like the 25w Greenbacks in that 1960AX cab. I would not mind having a higher wattage 2nd cab just for use for that plexi head and use the 1960AX only with my DSL50 or JCM800 2204, but too much $, too little space to allow for that...

First off let me say what a fine fine Avatar you have.

I can't safely recommend without hearing what 7 sounds like with that cab. It's just going to be a risky deal with the Plexi. You want it's sweet spot but you don't want to blow the speakers. Maybe some guys here who are running 100watt Plexi's with 100watt GB cabs will chime in with their opines.

shawkey · 10-12-2009, 12:29 AM

get the 2nd cab if poss. push more air and make more noise. break your back not your amp

Dave666 · 10-12-2009, 04:31 AM

I have a 1960Ax and I use a JCM800 2210 100W head, as you said, you never run it at 10 so, it won't be a problem... But I prefere my JCM800 2204 (50W) through my 1960AX, that sounds better and I don't have to worry 'bout blowin' the speakers... If you're going to buy another amp, I suggest you buy an 50W, it's still freakin' loud...

plexiguy · 10-12-2009, 06:56 PM

Keep in mind the old tube amps are ratings are based on the amp volume still being in "clean terrntory". A 100 watt Marshall can be putting out 100 watts at 3, 4 or 5 on on the volume control. With the volume on 10, the head can be putting out 200 to 250 watts!! The speakers will last for a while, but pushing the speakers will reduce the life of the speaker and will cause them to wear out and blow sooner than if you use a lower watt amp.

I'd go with a 50 watt head with a single 1960ax cab. Or, two cabs with the 100 watt head or get an attenuator to help burn off the extra wattage from the 100 watt head.

Also, keep in mind, a doubling of amp wattage only results in 4 to 5 db more volume. So a 50 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db louder than a 25 watt amp, a 100 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db lounder than a 50 watt amp, ect.

Get a 50 watt head, or even a 30 watt JTM 45 will be plenty loud enough.

BarkinMarshall · 10-21-2009, 10:30 PM

My mint DSL-50's up for sale sound great through the 1960AX - never have to worry about blowing anything up.
I can email you some clips if you want.

thegaindeli · 11-04-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plexiguy

Keep in mind the old tube amps are ratings are based on the amp volume still being in "clean terrntory". A 100 watt Marshall can be putting out 100 watts at 3, 4 or 5 on on the volume control. With the volume on 10, the head can be putting out 200 to 250 watts!! The speakers will last for a while, but pushing the speakers will reduce the life of the speaker and will cause them to wear out and blow sooner than if you use a lower watt amp.

I'd go with a 50 watt head with a single 1960ax cab. Or, two cabs with the 100 watt head or get an attenuator to help burn off the extra wattage from the 100 watt head.

Also, keep in mind, a doubling of amp wattage only results in 4 to 5 db more volume. So a 50 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db louder than a 25 watt amp, a 100 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db lounder than a 50 watt amp, ect.

Get a 50 watt head, or even a 30 watt JTM 45 will be plenty loud enough.

Plexiguy is correct. Especially if you're using a post 1969 Plexi. Min. they'll push around 160 watts wide-open!

Pull out two of the drivers, and replace them with V30's; this gives you a nice mix - plus increases the power handling 180 watts. You can sell the other two H30's on evilbay without effort.

American Viking · 11-12-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegaindeli

Plexiguy is correct. Especially if you're using a post 1969 Plexi. Min. they'll push around 160 watts wide-open!

Pull out two of the drivers, and replace them with V30's; this gives you a nice mix - plus increases the power handling 180 watts. You can sell the other two H30's on evilbay without effort.

No no no no no no no.

A cabinet is only as powerful as it's weakest speakers. A cabinet with four 25w greenbacks is going to be rated the same as two 25w speakers with two 60w Vintage 30's. It would still be the same even if it was two 25w speakers with two 10000w speakers

Telling people misinformation is one thing, but this type of typo he could be blowing his shit up.

A 100w cabinet with a 100w head is fine, just don't turn everything to 10 and you should be alright.

option1080 · 11-13-2009, 05:42 PM

Just out of curiosity, are there any speakers out there that people have compared to the Greenbacks that are very VERY similar in sound, and of course quality, but rated at higher than 25w? Not limited to Celestions, of course... Any decent brand!
Thanks again!

rockinr0ll · 11-13-2009, 05:46 PM

Vintage 30 all the way.

10-03-2009, 03:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
option1080 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question I have looked on this forum and on other marshall/cab forums and have not found a 100% for sure answer on this question, so i apologize if i am asking a question that has already been answered in another thread.. My cab is a 2004 Marshall 1960ax 4x12... I know that the greenbacks are 25watts each which makes the cab 100w watts at 16ohms.. I have seen a few people say that a 100w amp head should not be used with that cab setup because its to much wattage for the speakers.. However i have also noticed that a few people have 100w Heads with their 1960ax (or other 100watt 4x12's) I happen to be in the market for a new amp head because i am not 100% happy with my current amp.. So I am trying to figure out if i should be narrowing my search down to amps in the 50-60watt range, or if a 100w amp is fine unless you are REALLY cranking the volume up high.. Obviously i dont want to damage or blow out my speakers, so im just trying to play it safe! I appreciate any info on this, since i am not very electronically savi! Thanks a lot!

10-03-2009, 04:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
option1080 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question So if I were to buy a 100w Amp, and run it through my 1960ax, the speakers and the amp would all be fine, as long as its not cranked most of the way up? My rhythm guitarist and I both have 100w amps currently and never turn them up past 3 or 4... For practice or gigging... Also, another way to fix the 100w cab problem would be to get a 2nd 1960ax and run them stereo, correct? Im assuming that would send an equal amount of power to each cab..? But i'm less than brilliant when it comes to electronics lol. Not that i'm considering this as an option at the moment, but just so i know for future reference... Sorry for the annoying questions, I just dont want to buy an amp that shouldn't be played through the 1960ax, cause I love that cab! Also to insure I am making a wise investment as far as the money is concerned... Thanks again for your help! __________________ "In hopes that you will dream"

10-03-2009, 04:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
rockinr0ll Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Well, if you really are concerned about getting a 100 watt head you could just get a 50 watt. It really shouldn't be a problem though. The chances of you blowing a greenback should be pretty slim.

10-03-2009, 06:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
george76 Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 74	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question i would run a 50 watt head into that cab to be safe. if you really want to use a 100 watt head you could just get another cab.

10-03-2009, 03:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
option1080 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Ah ok, thank you Solarburn. That does make sense... I finally noticed that people that use 100w heads with 100w cabs use "power brakes" (same as an attenuator??) anyone know exactly what these are? and what they do? Naturally I am going to research this right now as well, to see if I can find the answers that way! But thanks again for the help everyone! __________________ "In hopes that you will dream"

10-11-2009, 12:37 AM	#10 (permalink)
jupiter89 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 38	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Hey option1080 I have the same exact concern. I am planning to buy the 1960AX cab, and I have a 100watt 1959HW plexi. I got concerned when reading Guitar Center's comment on the 1960AX that states "If used as a half stack with a 100W head, a power brake is recommended." After reading that I sent this e-mail to Celestion : "I am considering purchasing a Marshall 1960AX speaker cabinet which contains four G12M 12" Celestion Greenbacks. The dealer Guitar Center mentions on their site that if a "half stack" (one cabinet) is used with a 100W head as I intend to do, that a "power break" is recommended. I assume this is to cut down the power from the amp going to the cabinet to keep the speakers from being blown. Is this really necessary ? If so, is it just only an issue when the amp if fully cranked ? " Here's the response I got back from "Doctor Decibel" at Celstion: "It would only need a power break if you really crank it especially with high gain, for 'normal' use I don't think it would really be required although it is very easy to find yourself turning up just a little bit more ..... Regards The Doc" I will play with no worries through my 50 watt JCM800 or DSL50, but I will chance it with the 100watt head.

10-11-2009, 01:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
option1080 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Thanks for that info Jupiter89! Yeah I saw that same message, however it was on Musiciansfriend... I actually never even thought about the fact that the greenbacks were only 25watts until I was playing a show once and I guess the gain knob got knocked higher and every time i'd stop playing anything on the guitar (even turning the volume to 0) id get a real loud feedback like noise.. Sadly it took my dumb self a while to see the gain knob being at about 8.5 instead of 5.5-6 (no permanent damage to the speakers thankfully).... I never really turn the master up past 3 even, so I wondered afterwards "what pulls more wattage?" the overall Gain, or the overall Volume?.. Or are they about equal and both use a lot of power?... Anyway im trying to decide if I want to buy a power brake, or swap cabs totally.. Im looking to buy another hopefully soon anyway! Anyway, if you find anything else out let me know! Thanks a lot! __________________ "In hopes that you will dream"

10-11-2009, 06:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
jupiter89 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 38	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Option1080: Let me just say that you can feel confident with any information you get from solarburnDSL50 or MartyStrat54 - these are, helpful, considerate stand-up guys that are knowledgeable pros who know their stuff ! They are of great help to any of us on the learning curve ! From what solarburnDSL50 just said, I'll feel fine when I get to use my 100w plexi with the 1960AX cab (that I eventually will buy), WITHOUT a Powerbrake -I will just play only to a max. of 7 or 8. My DSL50 or JCM800 2204 (are my 50 watters), so they are no problem turned up, but even with those guys, its hard going past 8 !!! Anyway with that said, the only thing hotter than EL34 powers tubes fully cranked are the smokin' buns on a young hottie strokin' a Marshall - does it get any better? Hmmm - time to "plug in"

10-11-2009, 11:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
jupiter89 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 38	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Yeah' I will definitely go at it with caution when using the 100 watt head. Would you say volume of 7 or below would be safe ? I really like the 25w Greenbacks in that 1960AX cab. I would not mind having a higher wattage 2nd cab just for use for that plexi head and use the 1960AX only with my DSL50 or JCM800 2204, but too much $, too little space to allow for that...

10-12-2009, 12:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
shawkey Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: philly pa Posts: 36	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question get the 2nd cab if poss. push more air and make more noise. break your back not your amp

10-12-2009, 04:31 AM	#19 (permalink)
Dave666 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Belgium Posts: 64	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question I have a 1960Ax and I use a JCM800 2210 100W head, as you said, you never run it at 10 so, it won't be a problem... But I prefere my JCM800 2204 (50W) through my 1960AX, that sounds better and I don't have to worry 'bout blowin' the speakers... If you're going to buy another amp, I suggest you buy an 50W, it's still freakin' loud... __________________ Dave JCM800 2210 JCM800 2204 MKII JCM900 1960 LEAD cab JCM800 LEAD-1982 cab 1960 AX cab Randall RH100 1988 Gibson Explorer 90 with steinberger whammy Gibson SG Special Faded Cherry Gibson Flying V Faded Cherry An old BC-Rich Mockingbird with one EMG85

10-12-2009, 06:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
plexiguy Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 4	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Keep in mind the old tube amps are ratings are based on the amp volume still being in "clean terrntory". A 100 watt Marshall can be putting out 100 watts at 3, 4 or 5 on on the volume control. With the volume on 10, the head can be putting out 200 to 250 watts!! The speakers will last for a while, but pushing the speakers will reduce the life of the speaker and will cause them to wear out and blow sooner than if you use a lower watt amp. I'd go with a 50 watt head with a single 1960ax cab. Or, two cabs with the 100 watt head or get an attenuator to help burn off the extra wattage from the 100 watt head. Also, keep in mind, a doubling of amp wattage only results in 4 to 5 db more volume. So a 50 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db louder than a 25 watt amp, a 100 watt amp will only be 4 to 5 db lounder than a 50 watt amp, ect. Get a 50 watt head, or even a 30 watt JTM 45 will be plenty loud enough.

10-21-2009, 10:30 PM	#21 (permalink)
BarkinMarshall Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: MD Posts: 11	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question My mint DSL-50's up for sale sound great through the 1960AX - never have to worry about blowing anything up. I can email you some clips if you want. __________________ DSL-50's for sale!http://www.marshallforum.com/member-...-dsl-50-a.html

11-13-2009, 05:42 PM	#24 (permalink)
option1080 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 12	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Just out of curiosity, are there any speakers out there that people have compared to the Greenbacks that are very VERY similar in sound, and of course quality, but rated at higher than 25w? Not limited to Celestions, of course... Any decent brand! Thanks again! __________________ "In hopes that you will dream"

11-13-2009, 05:46 PM	#25 (permalink)
rockinr0ll Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Re: 1960ax w/ Greenbacks Question Vintage 30 all the way.

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