jerryjg

Mixing G12H-30's with G12M-25's? I believe that I have heard, but i can't recall for certain, that the G12H-30 drowns out the G12m-25 when mixed in the same 4x12 Cabinet?

Ken

The "H" speakers are 3 db more, which makes them twice as loud. That's not to say the blend would be a bad idea, but "H" speakers would dominate the sound.

Ken

Adwex

G12H's and V30's might be a better mix.

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javier pintos

i have that blend and it sound very loud and pleasing, i have them wired as 16 ohm pairs so i can have the 4 of them at 8 ohm or 2Hs at 16 ohm or 2V30´s at 16 ohm, this way i get 3 different sounds, the 2 Hs make a 60 watt array which is still plenty of loud for me

do use the xpattern if used on a 4x12 it makes a difference


cheers

rockinr0ll

What are the characteristics of the G12H-30? I always thought they had the greenback type speaker distortion?

PaoloJM

Nope, 10dB would make them twice as loud. 3dB is noticable but not hugley significant.

JerryJG, The G12H holds the low end a bit better than the G12M. It's better for more modern rock, whereas as the greenback does classic rock tones really well. It also has a nice smooth high end.
There wouldn't be a great of variety in the tone, other than the bottom, which will come out much stronger from the G12H. The G12H will louder on mids and highs to.

The suggestion of mixing V30 with G12H is a good one, I do that myself.

What tones are going for? What style of music do you play?

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Adwex

Keep in mind, there are two versions of the G12H...the "Anniversary", and the more expensive "Heritage".

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longjaw

Sorry but you're definitely wrong with that dB info - a 3dB increase in speaker efficiency is the equivalent of doubling the amps power in term of volume - a 50 watt amp with a 100dB speaker is as loud as 100 watt amp with a 97dB speaker.

I've got two G12-75's (which are around 97 dB) in my Marshall cab at the min and my 18 watt head doesn't cut it when gigging but when I'm using my 1 x 12" with a Celestion Sidewinder in (one of the most efficient Celestion speakers ever built I believe, at around 103dB) any louder than 6 on the volume and I get told to turn it down!

PaoloJM

No I'm sorry, I'm definitley right about this.

Well, we're both correct execpt we're talking about different things; volume and power.

You are correct about +3dB approximatley equating to a doubling of the amps power, but double the amps power does equal to doubling the volume.

dBs refer to releative volume or "preceived loudness", and that is what my point and the discussion in general was about.

+10 is equivalent to twice the volume. +3dB is roughly equivalent to the volume increase by doubling the amps output power.

A 100 Watt amp is not twice as loud as a 50 Watt.

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longjaw

In my first paragraph I'm quoting directly from an article on replacing speakers from the January 2004 issue of Guitar Buyer magazine pages 112 to 114.

PaoloJM

Then the article is wrong, or you read/interpreted the article incorrectly.
Did you get the part about volume vs power?
They are two different things.

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janarn

If we talk physics, 3dB is twice the volume.
Our subjective ears will say that 10dB is twice the volume.

PaoloJM

This is true, which is why I made the distinction of perceived loudness and power and my original statement.
The statement that an additional 3dB of efficieny does euqals twice the volume in not correct, and the G12H would not be twice as loud as the G12M for the same amp power.

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janarn

Science says that 3dB is twice the volume.
You may say that 12dB is twice the volume , I may say that 8dB
is twice the volume. That's not science, but very subjective.

The point is that the difference between G12H's and G12M's,
is the same as a 100w, and a 50w Marshall.

I got a '68 halfstack 100w Superbass with 4x12" G12H,
and a halfstack '68 50w Lead with 4x12" G12M's,
and I can tell you the difference in volume is huge.

JohnH

One thing I reckon is:
Although an overall 3db of volume change may or may not be perceived as significant, it is much more significant in relative terms when mixing two sources with the same input. For speakers, the louder ones seem to dominate the quieter ones, even with just a small volume difference between them.

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rockinr0ll

Very true, I remember when I was a kid I use to mix all the soft drinks and then I would finish with a lot of coke. The mystery drink would taste a lot like coke. A weird explanation but it's true.

longjaw

I ain't a techie, here's the article -

PaoloJM

As the article says, +3dB is representitive of a doubling of the amps power. I does not refer to volume, SPL or loudness at all.
Doubling the amps power or increasing volume by 3dB is not doubling the perceived loudness or volume.
Power and volume do not have a linear relationship.
You need +10dB, or ten times the power, to double the audible loudness.
This is based on much reasearch into the way the human ear perceives volume.
Our ears perceive volume or loudness in a logarithmic fahsion.
That is why 99% percent of amps use audio taper (logarithmic) pots for volume control as opposed to straight linear pots.

Read this article Sound level change and the factor of loudness formula sound levels volume dependence fold - level dependence decibel 3 dB 6 dB 10 dB voltage sound pressure audio sound intensity acoustic power formula relationship decibels dB twice as loud two times , as it verifies everything I've said. Using the calculator +3dB is 1.23 times louder, whereas +10dB is 2 times louder. This is fact, not my subjective opinion.

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Ken

Pretty much everyone is right; my original post was poorly worded.

a 3 db increses sounds twice as loud, but it isn't.

Volume and power are not the same thing.

A 100 watt amp is not "twice as loud" as a 50 watt amp from an objective measurement standpoint.

My 100 db speakers (G12H80's) are much loder than my 97 db speakers.

If you need more than 100 watts, mic the amp!

Ken

longjaw

If you need more than 100 watts you'll have to be playing Wembley Stadium!