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Unread 08-23-2010, 08:19 AM   #1 (permalink)
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2x12 vs 4x12

I'm gonna go from my 4X10 to either a 2x12 or a 4x12, mainly because I'm getting a new head, and it won't fit on top of the 4x10. Besides the obvious (#of speakers, size, weight, etc), what are the main pros and cons of the two. Will there be a big difference in tone etc if they have the same speakers in them?

Thanks
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Unread 08-23-2010, 08:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

There is no advantage to a 2x12 over a 4x12 except for weight and size. I've used my 2x12 for casual jamming and I always wish I'd hauled one of my 4x12's. More bass, better mids...no comparison.

I'd take a 4x10 over a 2x12 if that was an option.

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Unread 08-23-2010, 09:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

When I upgraded from a 2x12 to a 4x12 the difference was quite noticeable, in a good way. The 4x12 has its own tone/sound, whatever you want to call it and more often than not it's an improvement over smaller cabs.
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Unread 08-23-2010, 06:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I had an Orange PPC212C and replaced it with the Orange PPC412C. HUGE DIFFERENCE to my ears!! The 4 x 12 pushes more air and the low end seems much stronger to me.
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Unread 08-23-2010, 07:34 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I have a different opinion about this. Most 212 cabs are actually bigger inside "per speaker" than a 412 cab. A typical 1960A cab is around 5 cubic feet of internal space. This means each speaker sees 1.25 cubic feet of space. A buddy of mine just bought a 212 cab and each speaker sees 1.82 cubic feet of space. Sealed speaker systems like more volume for better bass. Generally there is some kind of fill in the cab to prevent boominess and standing waves.

So the bottom line is "some" 212 cabs can have good bass.

Next is SPL of the cab. If you have 4, 97dB speakers in a 412 cab, the total system efficiency is 103dB. However, say you loaded your 212 cab with Eminence Wizards. These are rated at 103dB each and two of them are rated at 106dB. This is a 3dB difference over the 412 cab. This is the same difference between a 50 and 100 watt amp.

So the point I'm trying to make is that not all 212 cabs are going to be out gunned by a 412 cab. The right speakers loaded in the right box can be pretty darn impressive (in a 212 cab).
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Unread 08-23-2010, 08:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I like the sound of my 4x12 over the 2x12 but I've had to compromise because the rest of the band keeps complaining about it being directional and boomy from side/behind(drummer)
AND I've learned sometimes one can put to much emphasis on personal sound vs the band sound as a whole.
Outdoor gigs, large halls gotta go 4x12
Small clubs and bars ,2x12

actually a 4x10 would be a nice compromise...I know, it's gotta look cool too! lol
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Unread 08-24-2010, 02:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
I have a different opinion about this. Most 212 cabs are actually bigger inside "per speaker" than a 412 cab. A typical 1960A cab is around 5 cubic feet of internal space. This means each speaker sees 1.25 cubic feet of space. A buddy of mine just bought a 212 cab and each speaker sees 1.82 cubic feet of space. Sealed speaker systems like more volume for better bass. Generally there is some kind of fill in the cab to prevent boominess and standing waves.

So the bottom line is "some" 212 cabs can have good bass.

Next is SPL of the cab. If you have 4, 97dB speakers in a 412 cab, the total system efficiency is 103dB. However, say you loaded your 212 cab with Eminence Wizards. These are rated at 103dB each and two of them are rated at 106dB. This is a 3dB difference over the 412 cab. This is the same difference between a 50 and 100 watt amp.

So the point I'm trying to make is that not all 212 cabs are going to be out gunned by a 412 cab. The right speakers loaded in the right box can be pretty darn impressive (in a 212 cab).
Right on man!! I have an old 1980's staggered speaker Fender 2/12 that will stomp on most 4/12's!! The bottom is tight and HUGE sounding with this cab. Right now it's loaded with a pair of 8ohm Celestian G12H30's and it's a flat BEAST. Makes the 1990's Yamaha Soldano 4/12 slant I have with Vin 30's sound plum puny running them side by side.
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Unread 08-24-2010, 03:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I have a large-box 2x12- which is 28"x22"x12" loaded with Eminence Wizards and it is plenty loud.

My question would be that when you mic a speaker...does it really matter how many others are cranking away? Does a 4x12 vs 2x12 change the sound of an individual speaker...or just the overall sound. I mic all of my amps anyway so I generally use the 2x12 cabs.
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Unread 08-24-2010, 04:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
I have a different opinion about this. Most 212 cabs are actually bigger inside "per speaker" than a 412 cab. A typical 1960A cab is around 5 cubic feet of internal space. This means each speaker sees 1.25 cubic feet of space. A buddy of mine just bought a 212 cab and each speaker sees 1.82 cubic feet of space. ).
This lends credence to the opinion we stack people have that the B cabinet alone sounds better than the A alone. It's richer and seems more resonant. The A cabinet is quite bright by comparison. I have to say, the full stack really is nice with the contrast.

I have a Woodson 2x12 cabinet with ancient Eminence speakers in it, and it's okay but even my A cabinet sounds better. I conceed it's different speakers, different construction etc. so it's not a great comparison. A 1936 might sound a lot better!

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Unread 08-24-2010, 05:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

Yes, the 1960B does have just enough more volume to make the bass a little tighter. If you look at custom 412's they are like three inches deeper. Most builders want to keep the same height and width, so they expand the depth.

Do you guys remember Procter2812's excellent build? This is an oversized 412 cab, but it is only loaded with two 12-inch speakers. Apparently, Marshall made a cab similar to this. One guy said it was a 1961 cab? Anyway, in this cab, you could run almost any speaker and get a lot of low end. I can't remember if he used fill in it to tighten it up and prevent standing waves, but it is a nice cab.

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Originally Posted by Procter2812 View Post
Well... Its not quite finnished yet but heres some of the pictures i took when i had time during the build at school...

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...2/Image050.jpg

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...2/Image051.jpg

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...2/Image052.jpg

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...2/Image048.jpg

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...2/Image043.jpg

The only power tools used were a drill and a jigsaw for the baffle then table saw for general cuts. Rest hand planed and sanded. took ages to perfect!

Its taken me a fair while and overall has cost me 160 or so to make including speakers,tolex,wood,glue,hardware etc.

Its made to stack ontop of a 1936 cab. the dimensions are similar to a 1960 just its slightly taller and thinner (depth=305mm).
Here are some comments and pictures of a modded 1960A cab that is my number one half stack.

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Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
Okay, here are some pictures and comments from my latest renovations of the 1960A cab. Some of you are aware of what I have been up to. Recently I bought around $1200 in Eminence speakers and I have been trying out different pairs in a 412 cab.

The 1960A has been modified. The G12T-75's were removed and sold. All the screws were tightened the handles were glued to prevent rattles. I cut two, four-inch holes in the back panel. In the holes went aperiodic vents. Real quickly, they make speakers think they are in a larger box. A thick pad of fiberglass was applied to the back. (Not shown in the pictures is the cut out in the fiberglass for the center post.)

I've currently tried several combo's of speakers. In the picture is the Black Powder and the Tonespotter. I really like the Black Powder and would recommend it for those who play any type of heavy metal with drop tunings. The Black Powder has a low resonance and has a tight midrange with a nice splash of highs. A 412 of these would make a killer thrash, death, or grindcore speaker. Palm mutes are brutal and tight.

I tried Private Jacks and Man 'O Wars, but I settled with the Tonespotter. It is a clone of a G12-65. This is a great pairing and I contacted Anthony Lucas at Eminence about it.

I'll post more later on the tone of the speakers. Here are some pictures.

Stock G12T-75 still in the cab.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0965.jpg

Back side of the two, aperiodic vents.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0988.jpg

Back panel showing the two, aperiodic vents.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0993.jpg

Slab of fiberglass on back panel. I had to cut a notch out for the center post.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0987.jpg

Black Powder and Tonespotters.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0989.jpg

Black Powder

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0990.jpg

Tonespotter

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0992.jpg

Finished cab ready for testing.

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/HPIM0957.jpg
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Unread 08-24-2010, 05:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

GHAY! Double post!
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Unread 08-24-2010, 05:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
I have a different opinion about this. Most 212 cabs are actually bigger inside "per speaker" than a 412 cab. A typical 1960A cab is around 5 cubic feet of internal space. This means each speaker sees 1.25 cubic feet of space. A buddy of mine just bought a 212 cab and each speaker sees 1.82 cubic feet of space. Sealed speaker systems like more volume for better bass. Generally there is some kind of fill in the cab to prevent boominess and standing waves.

So the bottom line is "some" 212 cabs can have good bass.

Next is SPL of the cab. If you have 4, 97dB speakers in a 412 cab, the total system efficiency is 103dB. However, say you loaded your 212 cab with Eminence Wizards. These are rated at 103dB each and two of them are rated at 106dB. This is a 3dB difference over the 412 cab. This is the same difference between a 50 and 100 watt amp.

So the point I'm trying to make is that not all 212 cabs are going to be out gunned by a 412 cab. The right speakers loaded in the right box can be pretty darn impressive (in a 212 cab).
I agree here with ya marty, a Marshall head through two Bogner (closed back*) 2x12's will destroy a Marshall Head/4x12 Cab combo any day.

*
The larger size Bogner 2x12 comes in two main styles: a Closed Back or Open Back design. The increased internal cabinet volume, results in an unparalleled hugeness in sound. These easily transported beauties rival most 4x12's in sound coverage. Open Back configurations give a little less bass response but offer really sweet midrange and vintage feel. We do offer back panels so you can convert this larger cabinet into an Open or Closed back design.

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Unread 08-24-2010, 06:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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... So the point I'm trying to make is that not all 212 cabs are going to be out gunned by a 412 cab. The right speakers loaded in the right box can be pretty darn impressive (in a 212 cab).
Like my Dr Z Z-Best 2x12 (Theile ported), loaded with a Scumback H75/Celestion G12M mix. Man, that cab sings! It actually seems louder than my 4x12, at times, I think due to the ported opening. It doesn't always have the chunk of the 4x12, but it's definitely got its own thing going on that's damn impressive!
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Unread 08-25-2010, 02:14 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Like my Dr Z Z-Best 2x12 (Theile ported), loaded with a Scumback H75/Celestion G12M mix. Man, that cab sings! It actually seems louder than my 4x12, at times, I think due to the ported opening. It doesn't always have the chunk of the 4x12, but it's definitely got its own thing going on that's damn impressive!
A pal of mine got a Monza amp and he wants to get one of those 212 Z-Best cabs. You are seeing more and more tuned enclosures for guitar, because of the rising popularity in baritone and seven string guitars, as well as drop tunings. Guitar cabs are now having to reproduce 55Hz instead of 82Hz (Low E).
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Unread 08-25-2010, 02:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Originally Posted by eljeffebrown View Post
I agree here with ya marty, a Marshall head through two Bogner (closed back*) 2x12's will destroy a Marshall Head/4x12 Cab combo any day.
Jeff, there's no denying the build quality and acoustics of the Bogner 212 Sealed Back. They are beasts. I would like to build a clone of one so I could have a real 212 cab. The cab volume is impressive.
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Unread 08-25-2010, 05:30 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

Ive ended up with an oversize 2x12, as a way of converting my old 8 Ohm 8412 valvestate cab to 16 Ohms. Two speakers were taken out and blanked off with ply. Ive kept the two at the top. There's a nice full bass with the volume shared by just two speakers, and its a compact size, easy to carry.

Its a good option, because these cabs are well made for an MDF cab, and they have very good sounding speakers in them
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Unread 08-25-2010, 06:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I use 2556 (1966) A/B cabs. They are oversized 2x12's. Very portable and light but enough room to still sound large. V30's or another very effiencent speaker helps too.
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Unread 08-25-2010, 07:29 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I have a 1960A cab with 75's in it. Sounds great with my TSL 60 but can be a bit of a pain to move around when going out to jam. I have done some research and the 1936 2 x 12 seems to get a very possitive review for the most part. I am thinking of letting the 4 x 12 go and using two 1936's. That way it would be lighter and easier to move and may only need to take one unless we are jamming outside. Any one tried this combination? Being that they are over sized cabs to begin with, it makes sense to me that two of these 2 x 12's together would pobably sound better than the 1060A? Any feedback / suggestions would be great. Also they come stock with 75's in them; what about changing the speakers out for V30's maybe? Anyway, any help would be appreciated. Cheers.....
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Unread 08-25-2010, 01:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
Jeff, there's no denying the build quality and acoustics of the Bogner 212 Sealed Back. They are beasts. I would like to build a clone of one so I could have a real 212 cab. The cab volume is impressive.
hmmm...if any of you have the exact dimension of bogner 2x12, i think i would like to build a clone also.
i've tried orange 2x12 cabs with V30, and untill now it's the best cab i ever tried. But untill now haven't tried bogner and CAA yet
Have anyone tried/compared the them??

Anyway, for 1x12 bogner and suhr CAA seems too many similarities, while the price is doubled.
And i've read somewhere that those cabs were made in the same place, by the same person..
bogner and CAA 112 cabs pictures from music photos on webshots
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Unread 08-25-2010, 01:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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I agree here with ya marty, a Marshall head through two Bogner (closed back*) 2x12's will destroy a Marshall Head/4x12 Cab combo any day.
I agree with that you and Marty on this. I know I'm the only guy here beating the Univox drum, but my 1005 2x12 is an absolute killer. The Bogner comes in at 25 3/4" height x 29 3/4" width x 11 7/8" depth, according to the Bogner website, which is near identical H&W to the Univox, only about 2.5" less deep than the 1005, so I'm certain that the Bogner is awesome. The Univox also has the added benefit of a centrally mounted sound post, which was stock 40 years ago, but which a lot of guys surprisingly over look. You might want to consider adding one, Jeffe; it does the trick, man.

Bottom line, good construction and more volume per speaker in the box make the 2x12 a winner for me every time.
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Unread 08-25-2010, 01:21 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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I use 2556 (1966) A/B cabs. They are oversized 2x12's. Very portable and light but enough room to still sound large. V30's or another very effiencent speaker helps too.
Those are so cool, you're lucky to have both the A & B versions. Would love to get my hands on even one of them.

Awesome setup with the 2553 head - the stack in your avatar looks ****ing wicked.
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Unread 08-25-2010, 11:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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I know I'm the only guy here beating the Univox drum, but my 1005 2x12 is an absolute killer.
I love old Univox gear. It's just hard to come by. Univox made a clone of the JTM-45 that is killer. They made massive stage gear. If I ever run across a tube Univox amp, I'm grabbing it.
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Unread 08-26-2010, 03:05 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

My band is a four piece with two guitarist's. The rhythm player uses a 1936 cab with WGS ET65's. He has no problem keeping up with my half stack.
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Unread 08-26-2010, 06:20 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

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I love old Univox gear. It's just hard to come by. Univox made a clone of the JTM-45 that is killer. They made massive stage gear. If I ever run across a tube Univox amp, I'm grabbing it.
In my part of the world, they're a little easier to come by on Craigslist because Univox was a local outfit back in the day; 30 years ago, everybody seemed to have a Univox something-or-other. You can almost always find a head like mine or the piece you're talking about kicking around. I see those on e-bay pretty regularly, too, and they go for some serious money now. Those 4x12s were indeed massive and really roar.

The 2x12 cabinets, though, are a bit harder to find or even get. In the last year, there were two guys within an hour of me selling my identical 1221/1005 set up on CL. I wanted to get the cabs, but neither one of them would break up the set. Believe me when I tell you I look everyday for one.
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Unread 08-26-2010, 07:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

Well didn't Univox also make a half stack with six speakers and a special 6550 amp to power it? I posted a picutre of Jimmy Page playing it.

I found it again. Enjoy.





That amp was set up to run a 5.33 ohm load. Two cabs was a 2.5 ohm load.

It had output taps of 10.7, 5 and 2.5 ohms. I believe this amp used four, 6550's. Total power, 140 watts. Now that's a beefy amp.







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Unread 08-26-2010, 07:25 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

By the sound of it, you'd HAVE to look like that guy in the last picture to be able to lift it
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Unread 08-26-2010, 07:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

If you ever come across a UX amp, buy it, even if you have to sell your car.

And yes, they have a massive set of iron on the chassis. 140 watt. That's pulling 35 watts per 6550 per spec.
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Unread 08-26-2010, 09:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyStrat54 View Post
I love old Univox gear. It's just hard to come by. Univox made a clone of the JTM-45 that is killer. They made massive stage gear. If I ever run across a tube Univox amp, I'm grabbing it.
Hey I agree and I'm Still Blast-in Old Univox Amps. I love-em. My 2x12 old Univox cab gets the most play time thru all my heads. They even supplied Transformers for Marshall Amps along time-ago and were way-a-head of their time.
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Unread 08-26-2010, 09:38 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

I used to have a 100 watt solid state Univox head that we used for keyboards.
It had to be the cleanest, most powerful amp we ever used.
Massive heatsinks and still got really hot when cranked.
2 bigass rack-mount handles on top, I can't for the life of me remember what model.

Never ever seen another like it.
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Unread 08-27-2010, 09:27 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: 2x12 vs 4x12

Here is a old Dealers price on something I wish I had

4-6550's and what they called "The Six-Pack"
and look-ey what I just found for sale at 225.00

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